German support for thirty bees



  • That was nice addition to the above, some of the details are more clarified now. Only thing that bothers me is that short description in the cart. The products I sell are selling by tens and thousands and with short description of every product it will be endless cart list. I will check if eu compliance module covers all those mentioned above once it is fully working. Thanks for the useful information.



  • Thank you.
    We need an additional feature for different taxes in the shopping basket. In Germany, there are different taxes, e.g. 19% for a T-shirt, but 7% for an printed book.
    It is necessary to show the different tax values in dependence of the items in the shopping basket.



  • May I ask for the EU cookie law. I read somewhere that in Germany it is not necessary to have EU cookie law message when entering a site which is using cookies. Is it true or I misunderstood something?
    I know that at the beginning of next year the law changes and the banner will be removed but what about current situation?



  • https://www.e-recht24.de/artikel/datenschutz/8451-hinweispflicht-fuer-cookies.html
    http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/google-cookie-hinweis.html
    http://rechtsanwalt-schwenke.de/google-macht-cookie-hinweise-zur-pflicht-handlungsempfehlung-fuer-website-und-appanbieter/
    https://hosting.1und1.de/digitalguide/websites/online-recht/die-eu-cookie-richtlinie-teil-1-was-gilt-in-deutschland/

    Kurz:
    In Deutschland wurde die Cookie-Richtlinie nicht eigens mit einem neuen Gesetz umgesetzt. Der Grund: Die Bundesregierung sieht die Richtlinie bereits mit dem deutschen Telemediengesetz (TMG) als erfüllt an. Jedoch deckt das TMG die Forderungen der EU-Richtlinie nicht umfassend ab. Denn viele verstehen die Cookie-Richtlinie der EU als Anordnung einer Opt-in-Pflicht, wogegen das TMG allein eine Opt-out-Variante vorschreibt. Datenschützer kritisieren deshalb die schwache Umsetzung der EU-Richtlinie. Da das TMG momentan geltendes deutsches Recht darstellt, müssen Website-Betreiber in Deutschland lediglich folgende Anforderungen erfüllen:

    Die Nutzer müssen über die Datenspeicherung verständlich und umfassend informiert werden.
    Die Nutzer müssen der Datenspeicherung widersprechen können.
    Die Daten dürfen nur anonymisiert gespeichert werden – außer die Nutzer stimmen der Speicherung personalisierter Daten zu.


    In Germany, the Cookie Directive was not implemented specifically with a new law. The reason: The Federal Government sees the directive already fulfilled with the German Telemediengesetz (TMG). However, the TMG does not fully cover the requirements of the EU Directive. Many consider the EU Cookie Directive to be an opt-in obligation, whereas the TMG only requires an opt-out variant. Data protectionists therefore criticize the weak implementation of the EU directive. Since TMG is currently German law, website operators in Germany only have to fulfill the following requirements:

    The users have to be informed about the data storage comprehensibly and comprehensively.
    Users must be able to object to data storage.
    The data may only be saved anonymously - unless the user agrees to the storage of personalized data.


    Das deutsche Recht kennt aktuell trotz der EU Richtlinie also keine direkte Pflicht, die Nutzer in die Verwendung von Cookies einwilligen zu lassen.

    Es sollte aber eingebunden werden. Es schadet zumindest nicht



  • Thanks for the detailed answer! After all the way I see things to inform the users enough comprehensibly and comprehensively about the cookies you should use message at login because I don’t see how can I force some one to read about it other way…
    What would cost me to hire a lawyer to check if my store fulfills all German law directives and advice if something is wrong? Of course if anybody used ever such service.



  • The German legal system is very complicated and a lot of attention has to be paid.

    I hope in terms of TB that German law is not too complicated. Especially with the many and fast changes. Sometimes only a few weeks / months remain until a new regulation has to be implemented.



  • Hello, just a short question:

    can anyone tell us if the Developer has seen our “special demands” for an German onlineshop and can we get an short view if this is interesting for the TB team or not?

    thank you



  • Can a layman ask a question, the regulations for Germany is only for shops run by German businesses or sole traders, or for all shops selling towards German customers



  • I am pretty sure it will be interesting but could you please list all conditions a German shop should cover, for example:

    1. On every product description should be stated the delivery time and price with and without tax.
    2. In the checkout process there should be option for the client to accept … whatever it needs to be accepted.
      etc.
      I think you get the point. They maybe are all written here in the forum but it will be easier for a developer to have a clear list with the steps he needs to cover.

    And as I understood TB needs decent translation in German first of all, so if you could help it would be nice :)



  • @Havouza if your target is German market you should cover strictly their law.


  • Global Moderator

    @Havouza said in German support for thirty bees:

    Can a layman ask a question, the regulations for Germany is only for shops run by German businesses or sole traders, or for all shops selling towards German customers

    If you write somewhere, that you send to germany. Then you have to follow their laws. Also if you publish shipping cost or so. So basically answer to your question is YES.

    What we do: We communicate, that we don’t ship to germany. From time to time we get question: “oh come on, can’t you do an exception for me?”. Then we are allowed to this, without following german law. But of course that way, you aren’t targeting germany.



  • So a way to do this is to connect the shop to eBay and Amazon to be present on the German market
    But again, it would be interesting to know how they would enforce it and if it is really legal to demand this from foreign businesses



  • Hello MockoB, please see one of my previous messages here…

    We have to give information to the customer about different delivery time and costs in different countries. In modified-shop we have solved it the following way: we indicate each article with a “*” like this: Delivery time: 4-7 days *
    And write down in the footer the following text: * Applies to deliveries to Germany. Delivery times for other countries and information on the calculation of the delivery date see here (link to an information page with further details on delivery times, delivery periods, etc.)
    Maybe this could be solved in PS/TB by asterisks and the asterisk also in “delivery conditions”. I have not yet tested.

    Correct information in case of price reductions, i think this could be already done by translations (e.g. Unser bisheriger Preis: 9,98 EUR)

    There has to be a short description of the items in the shopping basket (directly before the customer finishes with “payable order”). It should be the most important features of the item, 50-100 characters are ok…
    Ideal for this would be a separate way to enter something like this in the item description in the backend, … a possibility to specify defined “essential product characteristics”, which then are displayed in the order overview at the last step before “buy button” for the customers.

    On every product description should be stated the delivery time and price with tax (we have 7% and 19% here in Germany, in Austria it is almost the same).

    In the checkout process the customer has to accept the “Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen (AGB) = Terms of service” and the “Datenschutzbestimmungen = privacy policy”. It has to be a check field with links to the “Terms of service” and the “privacy policy” (source is CMS from the backend).



  • its me again, most of these is already done by the module “advancedeucompliance” , but this module works not properly with most of the Templates. It causes also an problem with the Smarty-Cache (when it is on). Hopefully TB can build on this module and so something better?!



  • I hope so, the module is already in TB github page with bugs and I believe @mdekker will fix it for the next release.


  • administrators

    It doesn’t work with most templates, because it isn’t part of the core. Theme devs often skip anything that’s not part of the core. But the lack of documentation is to blame here i think.

    I have no idea what to do with the module to be honest. It is important enough to make it a core feature, but would force theme devs to change their themes again. Another idea is to just fix it and provide some checklist for theme devs. If anyone has a good idea please let me know.



  • Hi mdekker,
    thank you for the information. Maybe it is possible to integrate most of these functions in the “normal” backend, so the webmaster can choose if he will use these functions or not.
    It is not just the needs by law, some of the functions are very good and nice to have for the customer, so maybe it could be interesting in other countries too (not only DE and AT).


  • administrators

    Yeah, there’s a checkout selector in the admin panel. Atm it’s just one step or 5 step checkout. I think it should include the EU checkout as well.

    If it’s possible to make one that’s suitable for all EU countries I think we should include it in the core.


  • Global Moderator

    @lesley said in German support for thirty bees:

    We realize things are very different over there in regard to the ecommerce laws

    I think this is mostly a misconception. Some 90% of what’s “german e-commerce law” is based more or less directly on EU legislation. For some parts, like revocation terms, EU law is applied directly. For other parts it’s done by national implementations. In short: law for all EU countries is (almost) the same.

    What makes the situation in Germany so tedious is our (AFAIK, worldwide unique) Abmahnwesen. Every competitor of a website can hire a lawyer and send the owner of that website a Abmahnung (cease and desist letter) for whatever that competitor thinks is not in entire agreement with laws on that site. No police, no state attorney, no court, no judge required. So far it’s still similar to other countries.

    The really bad part here is, the website owner has to compensate (pay!) for the damage the competitor thinks he has suffered. And the website owner also has to pay for the lawyer. Unless that owner disagrees and pulls the case to court.

    Result of this situation is that lawyers started to search for faults on websites, then to search for competitors which could claim damages and lawyer fees. If this is done with some scripting and series cease-and-desist letters, it can be a source of pretty big income. Kind of an “industry” was born. On top of that there are competitors which try to jerk their competition, of course.

    Result of these revenue seeking lawyers is that even pretty minor faults get claimed. There are court cases where it was to decide whether it’s sufficient to notify users about EU Online Dispute Resolution link or whether this link has to be clickable. Cases where website owners were found “guilty” to have their forename shortened to a single letter instead of having it written in full. Such stuff.

    Tl;dr: at the bottom line, german shop owners have to comply with the about same laws as all other european shop owners, but they’re way, way, way, more keen on getting everything right to the smallest detail. Because every detail done wrong comes with a bill, with loss of cash.


  • administrators

    Whoa that is some extremely useful information. Thank you!

    You say that sites can be scanned with automated scripts. Do you happen to know one for sites based on PrestaShop/thirty bees?


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