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Mark

how should a project like TB be run?

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Posted (edited)

I'm putting this forward as a discussion on how a project like TB should be run,:

At present TB is an autocracy managed by 1 person and only that guy knows what's going on and he believes that as billpayer it's all about him. According to him we Merchants will sit in the corner and await His rulings on what is to happen. That's the single worst way to run any software project. Getting people's buy in and involvement and input is the only way these things work. Everyone has a vested interest in TB and that needs to be respected. We should be not at this guys whim, where progress over months is measured by half millimetre amounts and where nothing is disclosed.

1. Democracy not Autocracy. Get feedback from everyone in the ecosystem about what does and doesn't work. Merchants, Devs, End customers, Module builders etc. This should be a key feature in the site that's mandatory and core and without it, operations are limited. To start with its manual and that's partly replaced according to merchant taste by automatic feedback over time.

2. Set up the company properly with targets, ethos and clearly stated based on all the feedback and NOT as one person's cloak and dagger secret ambition. Visibility of what's going on is available at different levels... 1/ stakeholders 2/ merchants 3/ the public.

3. People who contribute on the project get rewarded and are stakeholders. Tasks are set a financial figure and when they are completed those who did the task receive shares or cash to a value related to that tasks value.

 

4. Tasks are set by several processes involving the entire ecosystem having a vote on each based on technicals, commercial value to merchants, and priority amongst other things. A small committee representing both technology and commercial decides the actual priority.

 

4. Almost certainly the feedback will involve charging merchants and how to charge. We build a transparent business model from this.

 

5. Read "Slicing The Pie" a very simple concept as to how to reward people for what they do. This can be done by time they put in or value created by what they do and paid out in shares or cash appropriately.

Edited by Mark

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3 hours ago, the.rampage.rado said:

it's getting the project nowhere!

I think all these "recommendations" and "ideas" are actually driving developers away. A call for "democracy" in such a context is just kind of an euphemism for "you're obliged do my work for free!".

If there is kind of a democracy, ballots aren't forum postings, but code contributions.

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On 7/3/2021 at 4:24 PM, Traumflug said:

I think all these "recommendations" and "ideas" are actually driving developers away.

If this do work on you I think @Mark has been successful.

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On 7/3/2021 at 10:41 PM, the.rampage.rado said:

Dude, you're becoming very annoying.

Please stop your negative criticism, it's getting the project nowhere!

These were all positive comments on how to do things properly.

How old are you? 12?

Put up arguments of substance not just hurl things out of your cot and scream and cry like a baby.

 

 

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If you are not satisfied with thirty bees, there are other free open source options which could make your life happier and without stress.

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@Mark I am not either agree with the way TB is being managed, but there are more constructives ways to talk and express ideas. And also, sometimes if your/mine/others ideas are not implemented, we need to accept that things are not like we want, and take the decision we think we have to do. There is not more.

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By putting a whole range of solutions on the table I've been entirely constructive but because people here don't like challenge from me and don't comprehend anything much to do with commercial sense or success for project they try to get personal.

 

It has definitely shown me that there is not enough capability here for this to succeed.

 

It's certainly being run and worked on by tragic figures.

 

The problem here is that I've always believed in Datakick and stuck with this bunch of people on that basis. He doesn't seem to be around much anymore so now I'm working on unraveling myself from this fail and getting in with a bunch of guys that know what they are doing

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Let me preface this with stating the obvious, I am no longer with thirty bees and I don't speak for them in any official copacity. These are my own opinions. 

Now that is out of the way, Mark, you are a pain in the ass. You don't offer anything to the project, you donated $20 2 years ago. One thing I think is very complex for you to understand is that @Smile bought the company for a good / fair amount of money. Its no more of a democracy than if your company was a democracy. 

Over the years I have valued all of the constructive critism that has come down the pipe, whether I like it or not. When @wakabayashi stepped away to work on his own business and to see how thirty bees panned out, it mad me sad. But I read what he wrote, his thoughts, and they were fair and understandable. 

The same with other people that have come and gone over the years. Most everyone that has come and gone has been constructive, non combative, and have expressed themselves. 

You on the other hand, you talk like a child. You cannot form thoughts, so you just cut straight to insults. 

Like I said, I don't speak for thirty bees anymore. But here are my answers to your original post. 

1. Its neither, its a private entity. If you want to influence the way the project and company are headed, you approach the owner with ideas. Maybe a joint co-operation. Not just cut straight to critisim and name calling. I cannot imagine that has gotten you anywhere in life. @Smile is a good guy and very open minded. He might not be who you pick to run thirty bees, but he is who I picked and he is running it. 

2. As far as I know this is done. Notice the dev sprints on the forum, they state what is being worked on and it is set up as a proper company. 

3. That is not how open source works. It would be really cool if it did work that way, but its not how any open source project works as far as I know. There are some with bounty programs, but those are also projects where they have users donating tens of thousands of dollars a month. Vue is one that comes to mind in that regard. Unfortunately thirty bees does not have that kind of traction. 

4. No. This shows your limited understanding of software in general and as a whole. A long term plan has to be developed and followed. As much as the community of any project would like to vote on every task that is worked on, it is just not feasible. Things will end up too strung out, intensive tasks that provide seemingly little reward will be pushed to the wayside. A great example of this is how prestashop operated. They threw all of their resources into making 1.7, that is what people wanted, a new front end, symfony, ect. It wasn't out of beta yet and 1.6 stopped working. No one was doing the pain in the ass tasks like making sure browsers didn't deprecate the spaghetti code it relied on. A lot of the tasks that need to be done seemingly have no benefit to merchants, until they need it. That is why a roadmap is needed. 

5. Where does this money that is paid out in your mind come from? The $20 you donated 2 years ago? 

You have just been an asshole to everyone here, you need to tone it down, act like a human being, act like there are human beings on the other side reading what you write. 

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3 hours ago, lesley said:

As far as I know this is done. Notice the dev sprints on the forum, they state what is being worked on and it is set up as a proper company

No, that's the problem. There are forum threads with dev sprints and these are great, exactly what I am looking for, but they haven't been updated since 31 of march. 

Last update in that forum thread was may 17th when we were told there will soon be new updates but now 2 months later there is still no news on webpage and still no information of dev sprints. 

The conclusion then is that the project has stalled.

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3 hours ago, lesley said:

Let me preface this with stating the obvious, I am no longer with thirty bees and I don't speak for them in any official copacity. These are my own opinions. 

Now that is out of the way, Mark, you are a pain in the ass. You don't offer anything to the project, you donated $20 2 years ago. One thing I think is very complex for you to understand is that @Smile bought the company for a good / fair amount of money. Its no more of a democracy than if your company was a democracy. 

Over the years I have valued all of the constructive critism that has come down the pipe, whether I like it or not. When @wakabayashi stepped away to work on his own business and to see how thirty bees panned out, it mad me sad. But I read what he wrote, his thoughts, and they were fair and understandable. 

The same with other people that have come and gone over the years. Most everyone that has come and gone has been constructive, non combative, and have expressed themselves. 

You on the other hand, you talk like a child. You cannot form thoughts, so you just cut straight to insults. 

Like I said, I don't speak for thirty bees anymore. But here are my answers to your original post. 

1. Its neither, its a private entity. If you want to influence the way the project and company are headed, you approach the owner with ideas. Maybe a joint co-operation. Not just cut straight to critisim and name calling. I cannot imagine that has gotten you anywhere in life. @Smile is a good guy and very open minded. He might not be who you pick to run thirty bees, but he is who I picked and he is running it. 

2. As far as I know this is done. Notice the dev sprints on the forum, they state what is being worked on and it is set up as a proper company. 

3. That is not how open source works. It would be really cool if it did work that way, but its not how any open source project works as far as I know. There are some with bounty programs, but those are also projects where they have users donating tens of thousands of dollars a month. Vue is one that comes to mind in that regard. Unfortunately thirty bees does not have that kind of traction. 

4. No. This shows your limited understanding of software in general and as a whole. A long term plan has to be developed and followed. As much as the community of any project would like to vote on every task that is worked on, it is just not feasible. Things will end up too strung out, intensive tasks that provide seemingly little reward will be pushed to the wayside. A great example of this is how prestashop operated. They threw all of their resources into making 1.7, that is what people wanted, a new front end, symfony, ect. It wasn't out of beta yet and 1.6 stopped working. No one was doing the pain in the ass tasks like making sure browsers didn't deprecate the spaghetti code it relied on. A lot of the tasks that need to be done seemingly have no benefit to merchants, until they need it. That is why a roadmap is needed. 

5. Where does this money that is paid out in your mind come from? The $20 you donated 2 years ago? 

You have just been an asshole to everyone here, you need to tone it down, act like a human being, act like there are human beings on the other side reading what you write. 

It's certainly true I stopped donating to TB a few months after using it because I saw that there was no proper and transparent process for dealing with development and bugs. Since then I've given up on having anything to do with suggesting fixes other than glaringly obvious ones that are terminal and still are.

 

I've said several times that I have no doubt Smile is a nice guy. Everyone is capable of being nice, including me. I'm deliberately trying not to be nice here. I'm trying on purpose to be brutal because I honestly believe brutal is necessary in order for TB to be the force it's capable of being. It is possible that I have totally misjudged this and actually people don't want it to be a force. 

 

I know full well that people will strongly dislike me for doing so and yet I do it anyway because I think someone has to do it.

The reason I signed up to TB in the first place was because I liked the ethos and concept behind what TB was trying to do and the solid approach to technical robustness.

 

However it's soul destroying to me that TB is dying because it doesn't do things smartly and think properly about outcomes for merchants and instead there's resentment against merchants and zero communication with them.

 

TB is set to exist entirely on its lonesome without module developers or merchants. There seems to no interest in the commercial side of it and building the networks of support.

Most of us will end up with non functional modules as TB wanders off into obscurity with no interest from module developers in making anything compatible with TB.

Probably I'm not alone in having to ditch TB for multiple reasons and start again with a smarter bunch of guys.

 

The Devs are mad because there isn't much/any money for them and we've got traumflug talking nonsense about how individual merchants should pay bills to get code patched up.

I really feel sorry for the Devs that they face this level of managerial incompetence.

There's so much that's commercially terrible about the whole structure of this operation and you Lesley set it up this way.

 

Yes I could and should have paid more than 20 or 30 bucks. All merchants that turn revenue should contribute to it, but you didn't build any of this functionality and business logic into the platform so don't point the finger of blame at merchants for using it for free.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Mark said:

I really feel sorry for the Devs that they face this level of managerial incompetence.

Which Devs are you talking about? I only know two core devs: datakick and traumflug. The later you don't seem to like. Beside that there are a few guys, that contribute sometimes a bit. For example zengraph. But you seem to be talking about random Devs, which you don't even know, but you imagine, that they are there... 🧙‍♂️

 

24 minutes ago, Mark said:

but you didn't build any of this functionality and business logic into the platform

Again there is no specific approach here. Everyone could say this. You should understand, that you need to point on specific things/features, that need to be improved. You are just ranting. 🤬

 

24 minutes ago, Mark said:

Most of us will end up with non functional modules as TB wanders off into obscurity with no interest from module developers in making anything compatible with TB.

This is likely to be true. But most merchants are just not willing to change it - most are too busy with themself. As you as well. A few bucks are just not the way, to turn the ship around...

I don't even see your vision (that must be so deep & excellent) here: 

 Why not? Is it not possible, to write it down? Is it not possible, to split your vision in subjobs. Such smaller jobs could be funded with a bounty program!? A lot of questions from my side 🙄

Edited by wakabayashi

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised at that little tanty @wakabayashi
but I get that it's beat up on Mark time so I'll reply. I've stated my ideas a few times on here, just not in that section.

I'm not ranting about there being no business logic for charging merchants... There's literally no business logic whatsoever for charging merchants to use the platform.

I didnt say core Devs did I, I said Devs.

There should be guys on this project being rewarded for the build, and not just Datakick.

My comment about Traumflug were in relation to him demanding that individual merchants pay for code to get fixed. So much stupidity. Other than that he's working on Merchants Edition which seems to be competition for TB but I have no other idea about who does what and I certainly don't have anything against the guy personally. This is about TB and what a disaster it's heading towards for all merchants and Smile who has the misfortune to own this pup.

Edited by Mark

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Mark said:

There should be guys on this project being rewarded for the build, and not just Datakick.

Rewarded with what? You don't even seem to be ready to pay for a bugfix, that is disturbing you a lot:

14 minutes ago, Mark said:

My comment about Traumflug were in relation to him demanding that individual merchants pay for code to get fixed. So much stupidity.

 

Sorry but: you are one of this dreamers that thinks open source = free lunch 👻 

Please: focus on making money with your business. 🤑 Once you and others do, we surely have a lot of similair problems, that we want to get fixed. And in such a situation, we all will be grateful to split up the costs 🤗

Edited by wakabayashi
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Posted (edited)

The owner pays the costs of any business, and then he charges revenue to cover that. How difficult is that to understand? He only gets revenue if 1/ People pay it and 2/ He asks for it.

 

And no I dont think open source equals free lunch, Ive been talking about the many ways to do this properly and make it an actual business with people working on it and getting rewarded, including the owner... and making it a kick butt website that addresses a big opportunity in the market.... By developing key functions that are in demand, fixing things properly, building a decent commercial proposition and taking it to the market.

 

Currently is like a few little niggly old ladies selling balls of wool between themselves at a craft fair on a Saturday morning. The know lots about how to knit but nothing about how to market it.

 

I gave you a lot more credit @wakabayashi and have supported your ideas... Ive put forward not unrelated ideas and concepts too and I'm surprised at your low level of commercial understanding of IT projects like this and how to make them really do good things for people instead of being the derelict standalone it will be, with no module builders interested in this thing, no matter how good its technical base is... because they want to make money... and to do that they need a setup that works commercially for everyone... not just technically

Edited by Mark

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3 hours ago, Mark said:

I gave you a lot more credit @wakabayashi and have supported your ideas... Ive put forward not unrelated ideas and concepts too and I'm surprised at your low level of commercial understanding of IT projects like this and how to make them really do good things for people instead of being the derelict standalone it will be, with no module builders interested in this thing, no matter how good its technical base is... because they want to make money...

I am sorry for your feelings 😥 You seem to have a lot of fear from the future 🙀 

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I did have big ideas on where TB could go yes and I decided to use TB based on the fact it would have a great future. I can't see it surviving at all now. There's no one supporting its ecosystem and only a few merchants passionate about it now and I can see merchants are viewed with dark resentment by the old guard.

 

It's been too inbred, arrogant and gutless, backward thinking, and incapable of the challenging talks, just people who want their egos stroked.

 

I think Lesley did it no favours, and has probably left Smile with nothing much to work with.

 

I still use it until I've extracted myself from it but I wouldn't recommend others do unless they want to be stuck with nowhere to go with it.

 

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Big Ideas are worth 0 (zero) if there is no money behind the idea to support it.

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Totally.

48 minutes ago, toplakd said:

Big Ideas are worth 0 (zero) if there is no money behind the idea to support it.

Correct. I was interested in being involved in the ownership of this. But it ended up with just Smile.

Ideas take a lot more than just flicking money to the primary developer.

They need plans, commercial nous, infrastructure, money, team and determination... and involving the right people in its success. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mark said:

... I can't see it surviving at all now...

...I still use it until I've extracted myself from it but I wouldn't recommend others do unless they want to be stuck with nowhere to go with it.

 

I think you have expressed your feelings in many posts over the time and as you can't see any future, I really recommend to evaluate a different system and change as soon as possible. To succeed i that, I'd like to give you an advice. Invest the time in research and building up a new shop rather than grizzle here about what is going wrong or should be done.

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1 hour ago, Mark said:

Correct. I was interested in being involved in the ownership of this. But it ended up with just Smile.

Ideas take a lot more than just flicking money to the primary developer.

They need plans, commercial nous, infrastructure, money, team and determination... and involving the right people in its success. 

But why are you never talking concrete? You never propose any change/addition and collect money for it. Have you even spotted, what is not working in your shop? If yes, why don't you try to find people with the same issues?

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I have mentioned many things in here of substance, ideas and pathways for improvement.

 

I have reported bugs, including terminal bugs and critical improvement.

 

For months we've had virtually nothing fixed.

 

I no longer mention things because they get ignored and there's no proper funnel for fixing things.

 

I've offered to help in that process, I've put forward ideas. Datakick agreed this was good then went silent when we started to get into detail.

The biggest problem is that there's zero network with module developers.

Modules are set to die and there's no coming back from that. Modules will slowly stop working and there will be no alternative solution.

 

Datakick was clear in his "we're all moving ahead" post that this was a big thing.... And yet nothing much has happened that I can see.

 

Getting module developers to build to TB's lonely but good direction is a big ask of them especially with such few merchants on here and those that are backward thinking stay where we are don't upset anyone homeboys. Smile should have been dedicated to that issue and making that happen.

 

It's been probably at least 18 months since I mentioned there was a terminal problem with the affiliate process for example.

 

Datakick fixed one bit of the problem, then noone tested anything and still the process still doesn't work and there's been zero response to getting this fixed properly.

I've mentioned multiple times about focussing on Warehousing and Advanced Stock Management where TB has a great opportunity to do good and really shine. No-one has even looked at that entire area.

Probably most merchants use TB to list a few things on a website and it does almost nothing and they don't pay because its fairly useless.

There's no process for building and helping small merchants grow their businesses.

There's very little integration with marketing selling systems in social media .

There's onerous and unnecessary complication for onboarding customers who cannot be bothered with all the drama and working with things that aren't super easy and quick and very easy to comprehend.

 

People like me who have suggestions for change get roasted by backward thinking haters who just want me to eff off so they can slop about in their mediocrity.

 

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28 minutes ago, Mark said:

I've mentioned multiple times about focussing on Warehousing and Advanced Stock Management where TB has a great opportunity to do good and really shine. No-one has even looked at that entire area.

As you may well aware Prestashop reduced that functionality in its 1.7 version. They provided two motives. One was that their stock management software had quite a few bugs. The other was that the stock management needs of companies are so diverse that it is better to focus on having good interfaces/modules for specialized stock management software packages.

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Well that's Prestashop's position and that position might very well be what creates multiple opportunity for TB.

Although the advanced needs are diverse for merchants there's two points to make about that:

 

1. Creating a solid infrastructure that works well for most could set TB apart. Prestashop have given up and others don't really compete. Bugs exist but not so many that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to get on top of and then push TB as being leaders in this area.

2. TB can then build modules that cater to different needs providing the business case stacks up.

For me the warehousing and admin is key and I'd certainly be up for having a solid foundation then more a advanced warehousing module on top.

 

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