Posts made by dynambee
RE: General ThirtyBees Back Office UX improvements
I agree, it makes sense to have the bulk actions at both the top and the bottom of a list. Sometimes you need to look through the data before deciding what to do, other times you already know what you want to do and just need a way to do it quickly. Since the bulk actions are there to help people do things quickly it seems odd to make changes that result in quick actions taking longer. There have actually been examples where I thought bulk actions weren’t supported on 30bz because there was no indication of the bulk actions at the top of the list. Only after scrolling down, clicking each item in the list, did I find the bulk actions at the bottom. That’s bad UX.
I think there are some other UX issues with 30bz as well. For example, during the checkout process all (almost all?) the buttons are “30bz yellow”. With PS this wasn’t the case, they colored the “proceed to next step” buttons green but the “update”, “edit”, “add”, etc buttons were a different color. This makes it very easy for the user to see quickly which button to click to go to the next step. When all the buttons are the same color it defeats one of the great UX reasons for using color – to help users tell one type of thing from another.
RE: 3000% funded !!
You seem to have badly misunderstood much of what I wrote in my previous reply, and you have quoted parts completely out of context in a way that makes little sense. Please go back and read my previous reply again, but more slowly and more carefully.
I’ve certainly have read about it, but I can’t remember it.
Here is my post from July 2 that talks about selling the crowdfunded modules. It also talks about various issues with licensing and trying to stop others (PS in particular…) from using the 30bz code in a commercially sold module, but those parts are not important our current topic.
The ideas were somewhat more complicated that what is being discussed here but many of the same points were also covered. Covered points include selling the module to non-contributors, using the money to fund module fixes & updates, and the idea that selling the module would encourage more people to contribute to the crowdfunding projects.
@lesley: Selling it would be against what we have said we are going to do as a company, I don’t think that is something we are going to do.
@lesley: The whole point in the beginning was to make an open source module. Having paid or closed source modules is a conflict of interest with our companies principals.
@lesley: One thing that we are trying to guard against with not selling modules that we create is the idea that we leave features out, so we can charge for them. Basically like a freemium type software. That is something we are fighting against. I have seen other packages do that and it is not something I want us to get tangled in. If it means we make less money and grow slower, so be it.
These are not my ideas, they are statements from one of the owners of 30bz, and as far as I am aware the stance of 30bz on the idea of selling modules has not changed. This is why I say that 30bz is unlikely to be willing to sell the modules.
If we as a community want to sell crowdfunded modules then the crowdfunding and development would need to be managed outside of the 30bz project, as also mentioned by @lesley in the earlier discussion.
So, unless something has changed within 30bz (and I would be happy to find that is has) then the modules will not be sold.
In the end I think none of this actually matters. The 30bz community will grow, and as the community grows it will become easier to fund new module ideas because there will be more people to contribute to each project. If we find that I am wrong and that even with a 10x larger community it is difficult to fund module ideas then perhaps the topic can be discussed again.
RE: 3000% funded !!
My own actual personal opinion on this is that the crowdfunded modules should never be released for free to non-contributors. The modules should be sold for a reasonable amount, $20 or so perhaps. This money should be set aside to fund the upkeep of the modules as that is going to become an issue eventually, especially as more and more modules are released. Development is expensive, both for new projects and for maintenance & upgrades.
If the amount of money coming from these module sales exceeds the cost of the upkeep then it can be used to fund new modules, or the price can be lowered. $5, $10, whatever it actually costs for upkeep.
I wrote quite a long post about this at one point during the earlier ES discussions. However 30bz has made it clear that their core beliefs are that anything produced by 30bz itself will be open source and will not be sold.
If 30bz can find a way to be flexible about this situation for the crowdfunded modules then charging a small amount for the modules for a period of time, or even charging a small amount in perpetuity, is something I would certainly support.
However if there was no way for non-contributors (new users, etc) to obtain the crowdfunded modules for a period as long as a year I think that would be harmful to the overall project and fundamentally unfair to those who didn’t have a chance to contribute during the funding stage. Not that my opinion matters, but I would be very strongly opposed to such a plan.
RE: 19 Patron ?!
OK, but that’s a problem for people who don’t have a github repo/don’t know how to use it.
Github is freely available for open source projects so anyone can have a repo.
Git itself is not the most friendly of systems but I think anyone who develops in PHP should be able to master the basics. If nothing else, learning how to use Git is very important for any developer in today’s world.
RE: 19 Patron ?!
The main thing about having modules for download in the forum is they get lost, not updated, and no one can contribute.
SO TRUE! I can’t count the number of times I’ve found something that looked potentially interesting on the PS forums only to find that it was posted years ago and the person has long since abandoned the idea.
RE: 3000% funded !!
It’s really not a matter of opinion as there are two key facts:
30bz has been very clear that they will not sell their own modules. Even the crowdfunding was a bit of a stretch for 30bz, though I’m very happy they decided to try it and I hope they allow it to continue.
If a crowdfunded module is not available to the general public then the general public won’t see that module as a reason to use 30bz. Only once the module is available will it help attract new users.
The only matter of opinion here is if short term financial benefit is more important than modules being available to help grow the community.
You believe that short term financial benefit is more important. I believe that attracting new users is more important.
RE: 19 Patron ?!
@davidp Interesting with the BigCommerce sales tiers. I don’t think they had those limits when I last looked at them. I’d need to use their “Enterprise” tier, lol. Not bloody likely! Volusion is another one I looked at long ago and they don’t seem to have those limits.
Still, at the $30/month level they’d have to compete with Shopify. As long as the store uses Shopify payments there are no transaction fees, and most small to medium sized stores would probably be fine with that or even prefer it.
My point really is that if 30bz was to start charging a required monthly fee it puts them into an entirely different market. Not only would they still have to complete with all the free options out there but now they need to be able to compete with all the well funded options that are also charging ~$30/month.
Regarding Magento cloud, I think a lot of the problems were because it was quite feature limited. There were good reasons for that (much easier to support) but it also limited their success due to the lack of many important features. Imagine though a 30bz cloud system with ES already running and all the key modules to be able to compete or beat Shopify, but at $50/month with no transaction fees. That would be an appealing option to a good number of people. It’s a long way away still but it’s certainly not impossible.
In the meantime, the addon store will be a big help in earning the project money and as the community grows so will the number of people who contribute to Patreon. Right now most users don’t even know the Patreon page exists. That will change after it’s displayed during the install process and in the back office. It will still take time to grow but I’m sure that as the number of users grow so will the number of supporters.
RE: 3000% funded !!
Whatever the reason, the fact remains that the ES module takes much more time than anticipated.
Also, @mdekker mentioned to me in a chat that is was clear upfront that the ES module would cost more than the current campaign price but that they thought if the price would be twice as much the campaign would not succeed.
It’s possible that if it was priced at $5000 that it would not have been fully funded with the very small community we had at that time (and have today.)
It doesn’t surprise me to find that @mdekker knew it would take longer to develop than the funded price would justify. Most experienced devs know to take their expected time estimate and double it, especially for a project involving technology they haven’t worked with much in the past.
So I don’t understand how you can say it won’t contribute to the overall growth of TB
If the module is not available to people for one year after it becomes available to contributors then for that one year the module would not contribute to the growth of 30bz. I think my post was pretty clear about that. (“for a year after the module becomes available it contributes nothing to the growth…”)
Simple, they wait until it is released for free or they can buy it in the store for let’s say $30 until it is released ( in case of ES module still much cheaper than the € 299,00)
Waiting for it to be released to the general public leads us back to the module not contributing to the growth of the project for the time that it isn’t generally available.
As far as selling the module in the store is concerned, 30bz has been very clear that they will not sell the 30bz-developed modules. They do not want to head down the road of PS where it becomes tempting to withhold core features to make money from module sales. Maybe you can convince them to make an exception in the case of these crowdfunded modules but I suspect not.
I think my suggestion will do exactly that.
Based on what 30bz has said about not selling their own modules your suggestion would mean the free modules would not contribute to the growth of the project for one year after they become available.
Crowdfunding is not a perfect solution but I think it’s a good solution to fund key modules at this stage of the development process. I’m happy to contribute $ to these modules and will continue to do so.
Every month $5000 is needed for fixed costs etc. In case of the ES module campaign, $2000 was raised, so $3000 to cover the cost for that month. The developer had to take on other jobs for that.
If the campaign was funded by 150% the developer had to work less to cover the costs. That extra time he could have spend on TB.
So I definitely think my suggestion can benefit the TB project as a whole.
Yes, as I said before from a short term financial perspective your idea has merit. However from the longer term goal of the modules being helpful in attracting new users and growing the overall 30bz community it would be counterproductive.