Brief about status of project

[movieseals]

8 hours ago, Traumflug said:

All hints to this channel were removed already. No mentioning in the Readme ( = Github front page), no mentioning anywhere else. People appearing there either find it by googling or follow old links.

I did test all my old PS modules with TB.  Some no longer work, usually due to outdated programming or aggressive overrides.  95% work as intended.  It takes time.  I understand wanting a turnkey solution that roars right off the bat.  The basic TB works fine for a lot of needs.  All I can say is that I spend less time fighting stupid bugs than when I was on the PS platform.

 

That being said, fingers crossed for Lesley.  I hope things go well and you are back on your feet soon.

[piet]

First off all, Happy Newyear to you all!

All modules we work with are still working on Thirtybees so we are happy. 

@lesley Hope the operation goes well and you recover soon.

[Traumflug]

19 hours ago, Kashir2000 said:

It's due to 2 reasons. One is time, other one is that these modules (I'm talking about) are not mine and don't have licenses for them.

Then please don't claim these modules wouldn't work. Such unfounded fear is pretty much the toughest challenge thirty bees faces, there's waaay too much of it.

[Kashir2000]

20 minutes ago, Traumflug said:

Then please don't claim these modules wouldn't work. Such unfounded fear is pretty much the toughest challenge thirty bees faces, there's waaay too much of it.

I did not claim anything. Firstly I wrote what people are afraid of. Secondly I wrote they may not, not will not work (tho, I agree some might not know difference). What I have a chance to test was working fine.

[Briljander]

On 1/1/2020 at 7:41 PM, Traumflug said:

So far my impression of this discussion is that some people are more into leeching free software rather than running and growing their own business. Not a single post along the lines of "I'd like to do this or that, but I can't, because thirty bees doesn't cut it".

 

Don't know if you refer to me. I am already supporting this project and would be willing to pay more but then my expectations would also be bigger.

It's not that the current version isn't working but I do think Prestashop 1.6.1.11 work pretty well too. With that in mind it seems like the only goal is to keep the platform bugfree but not with any new features at all?

Sorry to hear you are not feeling well @lesley hope you will feel better soon. 

 

[veganline]

I am glad to see a thrifty core project with incremental change. I tried learning Drupal Ubercart> Commerce, then Prestashop.

Both had periods of investors' funding of payrolls, road-maps, grand claims, then frustration when the the investment stopped and the bills continued. Leaving people paid to do a hard-sell for a half-finished buggy product, which is a little bit frustrating if you are a shopkeeper.

(added 16/01/20) If I remember right, they had no way to add product combinations in bulk, but programmers were allocated to sales anyway to make videos saying  "we knew this would be a limitation". There was no grouping of countries either; you were expected to use a Fedex or UPS module or enter settings yourself for over 100 countries. They neglected the more cheap, mundane, incremental improvements. 

Prestashop neglected ways to simplify changes to code as Thirtybees has done, or adding a blog as Thirtybees has done, or fixing bugs. Lots of practical mundane things. I can do a lot of what I need without a single extra module on Thirtybees.

I had a look at Wordpress ecommerce plugins too. A similar problem to Prestashop and Drupal Commerce. Programmers trying to earn a living from code that requires paid modules for something "extra" , like ordering or payment or display of goods, rather than concentrating on mundane improvements. They'd argue that most modules are say $50, but it's often a blind date and a short-lived project. A sad thing is that people on message boards say "my site is...". When you click, the site is usually gone. 
----------------------------------04/01/2020 19.48 gmt, 

Oh and some of the Drupal Commerce shopkeepers / coders resurrected the low-budget predecessor, called Drupal Commerce> Ubercart. They preferred

• plain soft-sell to
• hidden problems & hard-sell

The Ubercart web site was near-abandoned and used by message-posting robots for a while, then re-emerged as liked & somehow viable in ways I do not understand.

Edited January 16, 2020 by veganline

[Kashir2000]

2 hours ago, Briljander said:

Don't know if you refer to me. I am already supporting this project and would be willing to pay more but then my expectations would also be bigger.

It's not that the current version isn't working but I do think Prestashop 1.6.1.11 work pretty well too. With that in mind it seems like the only goal is to keep the platform bugfree but not with any new features at all?

C'mon... blog module, webp to start with and many more... progresive images etc. Is it nothing? It's so much and bug fixes as addition!

[Traumflug]

17 hours ago, Briljander said:

It's not that the current version isn't working but I do think Prestashop 1.6.1.11 work pretty well too.

Just try to install this PS 1.6.1.11 on a PHP version supported today (7.3 & 7.4) and evaluate again 🙂

 

[Traumflug]

14 hours ago, Kashir2000 said:

Is it nothing?

My impression is, thirty bees could implement everything imaginable and people would still lament about "not moving anywhere".

Actually, that's a situation I didn't expect when picking up work for thirty bees. About everywhere else, derived/forked projects are seen as pretty much equivalent to the former version. OpenOffice moved smoothly to LibreOffice, people happily tried ecgs-gcc in besides or favor of gcc, MariaDB is welcome for MySQL users, Ubuntu comes with a whole lot of derivatives, Ubuntu its self is a fork of Debian and very popular, and so on. In general forks are seen as an enrichment of the choices one can make rather than kind of a threat.

Something is different with merchants.

[Briljander]

I havent claimed nothing has changed. Maybe I haven't had to much use of the changes. Can't run 7.2 cause I have modules which doesn't support it (not TBs fault), already have a blogmodule which has many more features and don't use webp pictures for example.

I don't really understand why this became a discussion at all. I am supporting your project.

Why do you think it's to much to be asked to get updates about the future and that you have a long term plan and give us updates of the process on a regulary basis? Isn't that something you should want to do?

[Kashir2000]

11 hours ago, Briljander said:

I havent claimed nothing has changed. Maybe I haven't had to much use of the changes. Can't run 7.2 cause I have modules which doesn't support it (not TBs fault), already have a blogmodule which has many more features and don't use webp pictures for example.

Don't get me wrong. But come on... comparing thirtybees current state to 1.6.1.11 is insult... It's like saying: Your tb may not exist, if it didn't I would be on 1.6.1.11 and it would be exactly same.
It's like saying: You copied Prestashop and did nothing - I know you most probably didn't mean it.

What has been done in thirtybees deserves not only support but also great acknowlegement for lots of great work. I, personally, hate where PS 1.7 is going, for standards these days it has literally nothing. Great learning curve for development, lots of not needed files, complexity and code overhead.

[zen]

15 hours ago, Traumflug said:

My impression is, thirty bees could implement everything imaginable and people would still lament about "not moving anywhere".

Actually, that's a situation I didn't expect when picking up work for thirty bees. About everywhere else, derived/forked projects are seen as pretty much equivalent to the former version. OpenOffice moved smoothly to LibreOffice, people happily tried ecgs-gcc in besides or favor of gcc, MariaDB is welcome for MySQL users, Ubuntu comes with a whole lot of derivatives, Ubuntu its self is a fork of Debian and very popular, and so on. In general forks are seen as an enrichment of the choices one can make rather than kind of a threat.

Something is different with merchants.

You are right, in the e-commerce World forks are Seen on a good sight only if the forked software is dead or almost, and to be honest we can't compete with Presta marketing and ADS... They invest maybe 70% of their budget in communication..not in code !  😞

That being said, I believe TB is the best CMS e-commerce available in  open source today, and I am happy to participate whenever I can !

Edited January 5, 2020 by zen

[datakick]

23 hours ago, Briljander said:

Why do you think it's to much to be asked to get updates about the future and that you have a long term plan and give us updates of the process on a regulary basis? Isn't that something you should want to do?

We consider thirtybees core to be very feature rich. There's no good reasons why another features should be added into the mix, as it works for 80% of the merchants out of the box.

What we want to achieve is the stable, and easily extendable, system. That's the reason why most of the development was aimed into these areas. Fixing bugs, improving error reporting, overhauls of the most buggy code areas, adding more checks etc... With all this, we can finally have a system that can be deployed to production with confidence, and it will work even if left unattended. That's not something you can say about the competition (yeah, I'm looking at you 1.7)

The problems with this kind of development is that, well,... there is not much you can say to the community. There is not big roadmap with flashy milestones. It's a boring, chore-like work. That's one of the reasons why nobody writes about that, here or in some blogposts.... 

I know it can be frustrating for you guys that don't understand code and don't look into the github... that's why this kind of thread flames every now and then 

[Chandra]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:30 AM, lesley said:

I feel like I am letting you all down and that really pains me and has been stressing me out beyond belief these last couple months. I am sorry I don't have a happy update this time. 

Our best wishes are with you @lesley

You will be back in full form very soon.

[movieseals]

9 hours ago, datakick said:

The problems with this kind of development is that, well,... there is not much you can say to the community. There is not big roadmap with flashy milestones. It's a boring, chore-like work. That's one of the reasons why nobody writes about that, here or in some blogposts.... 

I speak for myself but I can already see the results of that work.  Even on Ps 1.6, I used to have all kinds of problems  and more often, they were due to bugs or other code issues - things have been night and day even from the early versions of TB up to now - I can see that each bugs that get fixed even help some modules that never worked properly from before.  So I am totally down and good with that approach.  When the base is stable, it will be easier to build on it.

[Bill Dalton]

On 12/30/2019 at 10:34 AM, Briljander said:

Doesn't seem so.

For those interested, here is Prestashops thoughts about he future:

https://build.prestashop.com/news/prestashop-in-2019-and-beyond-part-3-the-future-architecture/

"What really struck me was the amount of inconsistencies I found: coding style, duplicate subsystems, prices being calculated with tax then re-calculated to remove tax, character set conversions that no one was able to explain—even legacy controllers, which look like they were designed to execute a single action, had been subverted into incongruence in order to handle multiple actions. It really looked its age: layer over layer of changes made by a thousand hands shuffling things around over the course of a decade, without really understanding why things worked that way nor what the original intent was. Some subsystems had even been replaced by new ones without anyone being able to explain why or how they were supposed to work. Madness!"

He is talking about PS 1.6x - the code TB is based on. I assume that now, TB is very different from that description.

[Kashir2000]

2 hours ago, Bill Dalton said:

"What really struck me was the amount of inconsistencies I found: coding style, duplicate subsystems, prices being calculated with tax then re-calculated to remove tax, character set conversions that no one was able to explain—even legacy controllers, which look like they were designed to execute a single action, had been subverted into incongruence in order to handle multiple actions. It really looked its age: layer over layer of changes made by a thousand hands shuffling things around over the course of a decade, without really understanding why things worked that way nor what the original intent was. Some subsystems had even been replaced by new ones without anyone being able to explain why or how they were supposed to work. Madness!" He is talking about PS 1.6x - the code TB is based on. I assume that now, TB is very different from that description.

To be perfectly clear. Both thirtybees and PS 1.7 ARE based on PS 1.6.

PS 1.7

PS 1.7 is theoretical try to straighten things up. At the moment it's few more times inconsistent than 1.6. 1.7 is partially custom framework based and partially Symfony based. So you can only imagine what mess it is. That's why it literally has thousands of bugs...
Half of 1.7 is powered by old system, and other half by Symfony, which still uses legacy code and hacks... and will use hacks if they want to have it backward compatible (good example can be found in src/Adapter/LegacyHookSubscriber.php - also first commend in code sums whole controller pretty much: //Hack SF2 cache clear : if context not mounted, bypass legacy call)

So its new system, that maybe one day will be "consistent" (and complex like Magento - meaning lower count of specialists and more people who do things not understanding why)  - but its nowhere near that term, and i belive it will take around 4-6 years (or more) to achieve this state. All PS 1.7 users are live test subjects and guinea pigs.

thirtybees

I see it as approach to stabilize 1.6 (ie. fix inconsistencies and bugs, but without bloody revolution) and add many missing features that 1.6 lacks - and 1.7 lacks even more.

I know few people who migrated from 1.6, to 1.7 and then, after testing thirtybees they were like "Really? A good working Prestashop finally! It does not crash where 1.6 crashed while 1.7 crashes even more than 1.6".

I think that's how you can conclude those two projects 🙂

Edited January 6, 2020 by Kashir2000

[Chandra]

On 1/5/2020 at 11:40 PM, Chandra said:

Our best wishes are with you @lesley

You will be back in full form very soon.

@lesley I hope you are doing well and are back.

[Acer]

18 hours ago, Chandra said:

@lesley I hope you are doing well and are back.

Yeah, any news on @lesley? I'm sure we're all curious how he's doing?

Best wishes to Lesley and for a speedy recovery.