Goodbye

[wakabayashi]

Nope. I said in PN ("what shit is this" about discord). It was enough to immediately get banned 🤣

Well maybe it's not a good idea, to give people power with like 15 forum posts...

[Acer]

12 minutes ago, wakabayashi said:

Nope. I said in PN ("what shit is this" about discord). It was enough to immediately get banned 🤣

Well maybe it's not a good idea, to give people power with like 15 forum posts...

Trying to get you unbanned

[toplakd]

10 minutes ago, wakabayashi said:

Well maybe it's not a good idea, to give people power with like 15 forum posts...

And not to mention that all posts are in this thread 🙂

Registered to post in this thread.

Honestly, that discord chat is leading nowhere.

Edited April 25, 2020 by toplakd

[wakabayashi]

4 minutes ago, Theo said:

Trying to get you unbanned

Thanks. But tbh I don't care about this discord, since I can directly contact to the main actors of tb... I will wait and see with what you guys come up 👍

[datakick]

 

Just now, wakabayashi said:

Thanks. But tbh I don't care about this discord, since I can directly contact to the main actors of tb... I will wait and see with what you guys come up 👍

I wouldn't worry, you'll not miss much by not being on the discord channel. And neither will I

[AnnaLisik]

18 minutes ago, Theo said:

@wakabayashi @AnnaLisik

I've let her know and asked her to unban. Was probably done by mistake. Pls let us know if you can access again..Also @AnnaLisikcan you please invite @M4ketech? 

As of @wakabayashi he is unbanned now; This was simple misunderstanding. Simple as this. No bad feelings involved. Sorry for this.

As of @M4ketech sure, will send him an invite 🙂

Edited April 25, 2020 by AnnaLisik

[toplakd]

I left that server, as in my opinion that discussion is not going into any usable direction.

There are better ways spending time than reading a debate that leads nowhere 🙂

[AnnaLisik]

1 minute ago, toplakd said:

I left that server, as in my opinion that discussion is not going into any usable direction.

There are better ways spending time than reading a debate that leads nowhere 🙂

Sorry to see you go.

[Acer]

1 hour ago, datakick said:

 

I wouldn't worry, you'll not miss much by not being on the discord channel. And neither will I

Actually @datakick there were some interesting ideas proposed toward the end by @innercode @musicmaster and others that appear to be in line with what you seem to prefer for your continued involvement, like a Company and not an association. So the debate going nowhere maybe not? 

Maybe you lost interest a bit too fast? Yes, it's gotten a bit messy in the chat, but I believe that there are enough sober minded people with a similar outlook and view on what the right solution is to fix TB and take it forward.

Perhaps you can read some of those comments and see that here is perhaps what you've been looking for? Might not look 100% or fully formed yet. .. We may just need to take these ideas forward somehow and with your buy-in perhaps we can? 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Theo

[M4ketech]

Since im doing new store now. Im been doing some search around. Its just strong community or leaders bring more users, like Shopware is even missing some features: https://www.shopware.com/en/roadmap/ seems like its missing even order tracking and even the Stripe payment method and lot of more features what small stores would want.

One way when leading is working, is just list what extensions Thirty Bees has and list those in their sites. Like if we get Adyen payment method, then Thirty Bees should be at https://docs.adyen.com/plugins

This way more users will find information about the Thirty Bees, like i did find most of platforms that way. If client says "I need use this payment method", i just google "XXX Extensions".

There is small bugs what we need fix soon, but some people like me who checks Github pull requests, its not looking good. And there is still stuff like "Donation Miner", what could scary some people away thinking that is some weird scam module (and you cant uninstall and remove it).

I must also say im not big fan of Core Updater, because updating core is usually bad if you have custom stuff. Same goes to Community Theme Configuration, if i remember right you need this for something really small (maybe it was something to do with live view so you can get front page working).

[datakick]

6 hours ago, M4ketech said:

I must also say im not big fan of Core Updater, because updating core is usually bad if you have custom stuff.

This is a bit unfair. You shot yourself in the foot back in the day when you decided to modify *core* files. Now you are stuck to the version you 'forked from', and you blame core updater for things going bad during upgrade.

Core is named core for a reason. It should not be touched, ever, by merchants. Or by anyone, really. That's why thirtybees have override system in the place, and a hook system as well.

Unfortunately, this kind of core modification is very widespread. There are many tutorials on the internet describing how to do things this way. Many third party developers / agencies do this as well, mainly because it's the easy way to do things. The result are shops running on outdated system, scared of upgrading, stuck in the past.

It's a bad situation, but it could be fixed, actually. Thirtybees could bail out these shops. We could have automatic tools that would convert these core modifications - extract them to custom modules using overrides. We could also have the system that could learn and understand what has been modified, and notify merchants during upgrade that some of the overrides are no longer valid, for example. 

[Acer]

9 hours ago, M4ketech said:

There is small bugs what we need fix soon, but some people like me who checks Github pull requests, its not looking good. And there is still stuff like "Donation Miner", what could scary some people away thinking that is some weird scam module (and you cant uninstall and remove it).

I must also say im not big fan of Core Updater, because updating core is usually bad if you have custom stuff. Same goes to Community Theme Configuration, if i remember right you need this for something really small (maybe it was something to do with live view so you can get front page working).

Because many of us are noobs here, myself included, I'm going to respect you and the comment about Core Updater and not add a LOL 😉

The thing is Core Updater is one of the best recently new advancements to TB. I'm sure that there are other guys who will defend it better. But here is my attempt:

It does a great job at updating TB and it has roll back - which is a really great feature that most other ecommerce or CMS systems do not have. Update doesn't work? No problem just do roll back. Also, there is a setting there to not update the themes, so if your modifications are there then they will be preserved.

Trust me, any self respecting Web system needs a descend update system, and this is one of the best I've seen. Ever tried to update Drupal core? Try manually. Let's not even go there...

That being said, sometimes Core files do actually need to be modified due to bugs or other reasons (I can't remember all off hand, but I have a list of these modifications and they were necessary and justified). What I did was keep record of the files modified. Then before update, I manually copy files or updates and implement these again after update. It's not as tedious as it sounds if you kept track. 

If there is a way TB can cater for these situations, then great.

Regarding your point about bugs, I think it's a good comment. If we ever go forward with TB as a community/company, we will need to tackle these. Create tickets or tasks for each and ensure that all bugs are dealt with systematically and professionaly. Like a normal development house would do it. And make sure that at the end the existing list has been dealt with.

Also your comment about the Community Theme manager. Yeah this is one of those weird things that need to be fixed. I actually encountered this problem. For some bizarre reason Niara theme disables this module, but even more bizarrely, this module actually contains the fix (wtf) for the jZoom on product images problem (where it doesn't work if it's enabled due to out of date library). 

So if you need to fix it, without updating the library manually, then you need to have the community theme module enabled. This type of shit shouldn't be necessary and should be dealt with in a better way. 

And yeah, maybe the donation miner can renamed to something else or hidden for now. It could be repurposed in the future for a better cause (I've got some ideas) so I wouldn't recommend it gets removed just yet. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Theo

[Petter]

To make Thirty bees more attractive for a broad range of potential users  - and therebye more attractive for developers to work on, ther are a few steps that will give better payback on the effort than others:

• Write articles about instalation of Thirty Bees, for example at howtoforge.com  and other popular websites.  Take contact with editors of similar websites like howotforge and make them interested in writing articles.
• Enable PayPal donations for Thirty bees, but also for invidual developers making it attractive for invidual developers to contribute to Thirtybees.
• Make it easy to install and test for newbies at home - Even small - Raspberry pi ( especially pi4 4gb) is fully capable to run Thirtybees - Make Thirty bees images based on raspbian or Ubuntuserver 20.04 avaialble for download so people can play with and learn Thirty bees. Also docker images and  virtual images to be used for Virtualbox / Vmware  and other hypervisors on more powerfull platforms than the pi.
• Corona makes people stay at home. If you have your own registred domain name - you can start your small shop from a server running in your house using dynamicdns.  If you have a 10 year old laptop or pc laying around, replace the hard drive with an SSD, fill it up with ram and install your choise of linux server on it - it will run faster than most virtual servers and will be for free. - The day performance of this old stuff is not suficient is your sucess day because you have a lot of customers comming to your web site !  - Thirty bees is perfect for a such solutuion.
• Write articles abut your "home webshop" above and make more folks do the same,,,, and so on,,, and so on,,,,

Edited April 26, 2020 by Petter
typo

[Traumflug]

6 hours ago, datakick said:

We could also have the system that could learn and understand what has been modified, and notify merchants during upgrade that some of the overrides are no longer valid, for example.

You mean kind of an automatic patch system? Look at the file on disk, compare it to the file matching the old version, then create a patch and revert to the old file, update, then apply the patch to the new version.

Sure, this would be fun. Especially when such a patch no longer applies cleanly to the newer version of the file 🙂

Personally I tend much more towards removing the need for editing core files. Supporting core file modifications better feels much like Henry Ford breeding faster horses rather than building cars. As you said, core is named Core for a reason.

[toplakd]

However overrides are good if one can use them. And keep in mind when updating, to check if the file that was ment to override has changed or not.

And what is most important, when bug appears, one should disable them to find if bug is override related (user-made-bug) or it's a true bug in core.

 

But, its always better to minimize the use of overrides if possible.

I for instance now use only 3 overrides:

Front ContactController.php to not send the copy of contact form message to the senders email, (I find no other options to prevent sending that email copy)

Front OrderController.php for 3 page checkout (assigning carrier into address tpl)

Admin AdminPaymentController.php to display additional section with Active Countries Restrictions.

Last one is used only temporary as its corona related because carrier changes its shipping blocklist every week.

Edited April 26, 2020 by toplakd
typo edit

[Anima]

Hello, I've been around since the birth of TB. I think I can give my opinion. Recently I was very inclined to migrate to Saleor, as it is more comfortable for me to work with python and graphql. PHP has always been a drag on me.

But I have a lot of love for TB. Here I learned how to configure a server with ISPCONFIG 3, I learned a lot about CSS and Linux (despite being an old user). I don't care which way TB is going, I'm going to follow it.

Here is my collaboration: - I recently wanted to start a personal website (with everything I do on a daily basis, informatics, solar energy and a little politics).

- I can write to HowToForge, Medium, my personal blog, possibly videos on youtube and social networks, thus increasing TB deceit.

- As you can see in this post, I have a little difficulty with English, but I take responsibility, without altruism, I believe that I can evolve a lot in all areas that I will get involved in!

- The idea of the raspberry was magnificent, I was already thinking of exploring it, because I have an old machine running server and raspberry pi 3 to play with.

Continuing on raspberry, this can be the gateway for many logists, since at least here (Brazil) many people start making up to 1 - 2 sales a week ... so the raspberry is more than enough. Especially now that U$ 1 = R$ 5.70 (when it should be around R$ 2) I have a lot more to say, but it ended up here.

Remembering where TB goes, I'll go along, even if with another name!

Edited April 27, 2020 by Anima

[datakick]

18 hours ago, Traumflug said:

You mean kind of an automatic patch system? Look at the file on disk, compare it to the file matching the old version, then create a patch and revert to the old file, update, then apply the patch to the new version.

Sure, this would be fun. Especially when such a patch no longer applies cleanly to the newer version of the file 🙂

Personally I tend much more towards removing the need for editing core files. Supporting core file modifications better feels much like Henry Ford breeding faster horses rather than building cars. As you said, core is named Core for a reason.

Definitely not what I meant. Patching core files is not the right way to do things. Core files should remain as they are supposed to be.

At the moment there are two mechanism that can be used to tweak behaviour - hooks and overrides. There is a big hate towards override system among developers. I agree that it's not ideal, but a system like this is necessary in order to have a flexible platform. And hooks are not the solutions here - it's just not possible to pre-make hooks for everything, as core developers can't anticipate all needs.

Some people argue that if module developer needs some new hook, he can always create a pull request, and the hook will be in the included in the future version of the platform. That's true, he can do that. But there are many buts:

• first of all, it's not guaranteed that the PR will be merged at all
• if it is merged, it can be merged with some modification, prompting original developer to adjust his module once again
• it can take a lot of time for the new version to be released -- module developer can't sell his new module meanwhile
• even if it's merged, module developer can't sell his module to older version of the platform
• and finally -- hooks are runtime mechanism that adds quite a lot of overhead. The more hooks we have (support), the slower the system. Overrides are much faster

I believe hook system is nice to have, but it can't be the only tool to tweak the platform. We really need overrides, or similar system, for example AOP.

For backwards compatibility reasons, we need to support overrides. Otherwise 50% of modules would stop working. Because it's such an important part of the customization mechanism, it should receive some love from the core developers. And this is what I was talking about in my former post

•  Implement better override installation/uninstallation mechanism.
• Automatic override removal when module is disabled or manually removed from filesystem.
• Semantic analysis of overrides - parse the override file to determine what core methods or properties gets override. Warn if module overrides method that has been deprecated, or removed, from core files. 
• Optionally, report information about overrides to api.thirtybees.com - this would gave core developers much better insight into what can be refactored, and what not. 

 

 

 

[Chandra]

All, I have put forth an idea/option in the below thread. Please comment and vote. Thanks.

 

 

[musicmaster]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:24 AM, Theo said:

The thing is Core Updater is one of the best recently new advancements to TB. I'm sure that there are other guys who will defend it better. But here is my attempt:

It does a great job at updating TB and it has roll back - which is a really great feature that most other ecommerce or CMS systems do not have. Update doesn't work? No problem just do roll back.

This works nice when you take an existing system and upgrade the core in the hope of a bit more speed and stability. In that case you know that a problem was caused by this upgrade and you can roll it back.

But the Core Updater system is a bit problematic when you are starting a new shop. If you go the TB download page you get version 1.1 from July last year. So you tend to upgrade it with Core Updater to the latest version. But now you have a problem: when you find a bug you don't know whether it is in TB, the template or some module. This could easily be solved by having more official versions that have extensively been tested for stability.

[Acer]

12 hours ago, musicmaster said:

This could easily be solved by having more official versions that have extensively been tested for stability.

I believe 1.1.1 has been in testing for quite some time now:

And no, you don't have to upgrade to bleeding edge if you've downloaded 1.1.0. I do advise though that if you have an earlier version you should go up to 1.1.0.

I have a few stores running on 1.1.0 and it's stable and I haven't had the need to upgrade to bleeding edge with these ones yet. 

@musicmaster Bytw, if you're experiencing problems on Bleeding Edge, I suggest you downgrade to 1.1.0 with the Core Updater.
Then you can check if it's a glitch with the module. If it's working fine, then you know the problem is Bleeding Edge.
You can then create a bug report or make a post in the "1.1.1 pre-release bug hunt" thread and stay on 1.1.0 until the problem is sorted.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Theo

[Kashir2000]

Actually "PAID" I think it would be hard for him to be paid. Not sure how are the sales, but income from donations seems quite tiny. Maybe "marketplace" does better job.

That said, alot of people here using TB, but not many of thems seems to support it in any way. So this project will have it hard to stay alive. I once created free open source project used by few thousands shops. It was only for donation if someone wanted. For 4 years of development, I had only one donation. Switched to freemium mode so I could carry on with module. Donation oriented projects depend on community, and from my experience, it's sometimes hard to even maintain server, not saying team of devs who also eat, drink and want to buy a car or something. You can't live only from satisfaction of creating something.

Everyone is expecting super open source product and not many wants to pay for it. The first comparision that comes to my mind are torrents. There are seeders and leechers. Leechers kill torrents and seeders keep it alive. It's exactly same here. Seeders who support growth and leechers who only take from project.

(I do not write it to offend anyone, as maybe not everyone can afford those 5$/month - but that's the truth that will most probably put that well dry... )

[Anima]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:05 AM, Kashir2000 said:

Actually "PAID" I think it would be hard for him to be paid. Not sure how are the sales, but income from donations seems quite tiny. Maybe "marketplace" does better job.

That said, alot of people here using TB, but not many of thems seems to support it in any way. So this project will have it hard to stay alive. I once created free open source project used by few thousands shops. It was only for donation if someone wanted. For 4 years of development, I had only one donation. Switched to freemium mode so I could carry on with module. Donation oriented projects depend on community, and from my experience, it's sometimes hard to even maintain server, not saying team of devs who also eat, drink and want to buy a car or something. You can't live only from satisfaction of creating something.

Everyone is expecting super open source product and not many wants to pay for it. The first comparision that comes to my mind are torrents. There are seeders and leechers. Leechers kill torrents and seeders keep it alive. It's exactly same here. Seeders who support growth and leechers who only take from project.

(I do not write it to offend anyone, as maybe not everyone can afford those 5$/month - but that's the truth that will most probably put that well dry... )

It is unfortunate $ 5 to be so much money in my country!

[Kashir2000]

On 4/29/2020 at 2:46 PM, Anima said:

It is unfortunate $ 5 to be so much money in my country!

And for them you probably won't buy a anything for it ;(

[Kashir2000]

On 4/16/2020 at 1:22 PM, Traumflug said:

Likely not. In early 2019 I was into hiring developers for thirty bees. This wasn't exactly easy, even with plenty of funds. A surprisingly large number of PrestaShop developers outright refused to work for thirty bees, simply because it's kind of a competition for PrestaShop. And freshmen refused to work for the project because they never heard of it.

Another datapoint, remember this effort of PS to make PS 1.6 community-maintained to keep it alive? They immediately found like a dozen developers volunteering for this. As we know, thirty bees does exactly what this effort wants to solve: keep a 1.6-compatible software alive. Still no such dozen developers volunteering.

A substantial part of the problem is people believing way too much in brand names. They prefer a buggy PS 1.6 over a stable and compatible thirty bees, just because it's named 'PrestaShop'. So far no solution for this aspect in sight.

@Traumflug There is also another thing. There are not many people wanting for TB to rise for one simple reason: Having to maintain compatibility for 2 shops. A lot of devs dream of 1.6 being put to rest (yes, they also hate Prestashop 1.6), as 1.7 takes over. Maintaining backward compatibility with 1.6 (and/or TB) is additional work. So basically it's not personally aimed at TB or you guys, it's aimed at lowering costs and maximizing income. Because of state of 1.7 I'm seriously thinking about changing my business model. I don't want to be held responsible by my clients for bugs in 1.7. Still, my clients I migrated to TB expect FROM ME modules for prestashop to work or fix them. Their mentality is like: "If I had Prestashop, it would surely work". So either I go on war with them or comply with their insane requests.

It's a shame, but this brings a lot of regret to devs like you and me.

PS: Also, when I recommend thirtybees and explain all differences, I'm being held responsible for recommending it to clients. Some people are insane, and blaming their decisions on others. And saying "Prestashop would be better". That's where "brand" part comes in.

[Anima]

8 horas atrás, Kashir2000 disse:

@ Traumflug Há também outra coisa. Não há muitas pessoas que usam o TB por um simples motivo: que mantêm a compatibilidade de 2 lojas. Muitos desenvolvedores sonham que o 1.6 esteja interrompido (sim, eles também são odiados no Prestashop 1.6), e o 1.7 assuma o controle. Manter compatibilidade com versões anteriores com 1.6 (e / ou TB) é um trabalho adicional. Então, basicamente, não é direcionado para TB ou para você, visto reduzir custos e maximizar uma renda. Por causa do estado de 1,7, estou pensando seriamente em mudar meu modelo de negócios. Eu não quero ser responsabilizado pelos meus clientes por bugs no 1.7.Ainda assim, meus clientes que migraram para um TB esperam que os módulos FROM ME para prestashop funcionem ou corrijam. A mentalidade deles é como: "Se você teve Prestashop, certamente funcionaria". Então, eu vou em guerra com eles ou cumprimos seus pedidos insanos.

É uma pena, mas isso traz muito arrependimento para desenvolvedores como você e eu.

PS: Além disso, quando recomendo trinta e poucos e explorar todas as diferenças, sou responsável por recomendar-lo aos clientes. Algumas pessoas são loucas e culpam suas decisões por outras. E dizendo "Prestashop seria melhor". É aí que entra uma parte "marca".

Sou usuário Linux a mais de 5 anos, fiquei maravilhado por opensource e livre, logo em seguida fiquei apaixonado por python, hoje ajudo em projetos opensource e livre em paython, e em outros ajudo em tradução.

Eu quem traduziu 100% do TB para PT-BR e acredito por muito tempo (não sei hoje) portugueses usavam essa tradução.

Eu não posso ajudar com dinheiro, se eu pudesse eu ajudaria com certeza, pois sei da importância desse tipo de licença. Mas não deixo de ajudar com código (quando tenho capacidade, pois sou iniciante em programação), tradução e informando bugs. Em muitos projetos até tenho voz, aqui não foi um deles.

Certa vez sugeri uma funcionalidade que iria fazer TB decolar. Sugeri uma simples adição de frente de caixa, pois muitas lojas não são apenas online, elas também são físicas e usam outras ferramentas não integradas ao TB para vender em lojas físicas.

Mas, acredito que o sonho acabou, estou migrando hoje para saleor e desligando minhas lojas TB, ficará até mais confortavel visto ue saleor usa python e graphql sendo assim tenho mais autonomia, não precisa pagar ou esperar décadas para ferramentas simples serem implantadas.

Desculpem escrever em português, após esse descaso do TB, decidi que vou dar mais valor as minhas coisas, eu sei Python, vou procurar soluções em Python, estudo GraphQL, vou procurar soluções em GraphQL. E vou me despedir do TB que eu tanto amei em português, pois não quero falhas na tradução!

Eu te amei muito TB! Mas tenho que continua seguindo...