Release date of the new version (1.3) and road map

[Mark]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:44 AM, Smile said:

Good to see people are caring a lot for this project. I have to divide my time between my normal store and TB. This can be a challenge and even more with all the changes in the world (raising prices preventive home stay and more 😅). They don't make it more simple. But we will get there and soon a short newsletter will be send out. 

And as more people mention in this topic, what do you expect. Within this topic there is only one paying support costumer and one backer. And I don't have to tell you what a developer in the EU will cost 😉 So please join as backer it support us in the feeling we do good and we can have a biscuit with the thee!

Currently I pay this project for more than 95% with my own money, and we would love to change this in the opposite 🙂 I don't need a profit, but break even would be nice some day!

Look at this whiney low level desperate stuff. Seriously. I'm sure he's a nice guy with a great career in customer service but we can't have someone like this solely in charge of owning a serious ecommerce platform.

He's made money through being a pleaser and good on him, but we need someone with kahunas and vision who will work tirelessly on building the development and module ecosystem and focus on merchant needs. You've got @Traumflug

Edited June 22, 2021 by Mark

[30knees]

Regardless of your opinion, @Mark, that tone isn't exactly the most constructive way to make your argument.

Regarding your modules, please post what's essential here:

 

 

[Smile]

Do we need to bee something else than a cute geek project? Do we need to be a shopify/lightspeed with 🤑 investors? Do we need to be a Prestashop with less and less functions and more and more 🤑 modules and empty newsletters?

Or should we just do that one thing good, stable and adding new modern functions that I and other merchants really miss. Wait and see where we will go, we are just started putting energy in the project for a few months.

 

[led24ee]

Can You give example of modern function ? Years ago there was at least talk about advanced stock management. Is there any result ?

[Briljander]

2 hours ago, Smile said:

Do we need to bee something else than a cute geek project? Do we need to be a shopify/lightspeed with 🤑 investors? Do we need to be a Prestashop with less and less functions and more and more 🤑 modules and empty newsletters?

Or should we just do that one thing good, stable and adding new modern functions that I and other merchants really miss. Wait and see where we will go, we are just started putting energy in the project for a few months.

 

We don't need more than that but yes, I really do think you should try and send a newsletter once every month or post some news about progress. 

If you are the only one knowing what's going on everyone else would probably have abandoned the project thinking it's dead cause the lack of information.

[SLiCK_303]

I would at least post to the Supporters forum, leave everyone else in the dark......  😜

[Beeta]

11 hours ago, Smile said:

Do we need to bee something else than a cute geek project? Do we need to be a shopify/lightspeed with 🤑 investors? Do we need to be a Prestashop with less and less functions and more and more 🤑 modules and empty newsletters?

Or should we just do that one thing good, stable and adding new modern functions that I and other merchants really miss. Wait and see where we will go, we are just started putting energy in the project for a few months.

 

The main problem I see is that many ps third party developers are quitting their support/development to 1.6 ps (so to thirty bees too).

[Mark]

"wait and see where we will go"

@Smile

Seriously it's getting more ridiculous by the minute. No code updates for so long, is datakick even still there? Bugs not being properly fixed.

No serious commitments to anything other than spying on merchants.

This is going to die. We've all been untold patient for so long and there's no plans STILL.

No communication, zip

A great opportunity to do something great is going begging. Gradually TB will just be isolated with no serious module developers interested in keeping compatible.

[wakabayashi]

25 minutes ago, Mark said:

"wait and see where we will go"

@Smile

Seriously it's getting more ridiculous by the minute. No code updates for so long, is datakick even still there? Bugs not being properly fixed.

No serious commitments to anything other than spying on merchants.

This is going to die. We've all been untold patient for so long and there's no plans STILL.

No communication, zip

A great opportunity to do something great is going begging. Gradually TB will just be isolated with no serious module developers interested in keeping compatible.

While you might be right, I still would like to remind you, that you are talking to persons with feelings. I am not happy either, but do I invest myself a lot? No. To modify a famous quote a bit:

 ask not what thirtybees can do for you — ask what you can do for thirtybees.

[Mark]

@wakabayashi
im well aware of everyone's desire to not upset anyone and be as PC as possible and all support and gather around the bill payer and cocoon him in condolences of having someone challenge him

However this is about the way this being run as a secret squirrel project that does not involve input from merchants and just running things the way he personally would like things done because he's paying the bills.

 Time is long overdue to get professional and build this platform into something powerful.

I know exactly what you mean by "what am I doing to help".

I'm not a coder. I have offered to help with key aspects of managing the process pathway and project, and datakick responded to that positively and further steps were taken and then abruptly everything stopped so I presume Smile stopped that.

 

The only other thing I can do other than contribute requirements and ideas is to pay.

Unless this project starts getting run professionally and democratically and not by force or authoritarian dictatorship I'm not paying (I used to pay).

 

[Traumflug]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

Time is long overdue to get professional and build this platform into something powerful.

Then go ahead and do it. Nobody stops you to hire a developer if you don't feel like doing it yourself.

[led24ee]

1 hour ago, Traumflug said:

Then go ahead and do it. Nobody stops you to hire a developer if you don't feel like doing it yourself.

You don't really understand ? There is one question and it's about future. More than year. And there is ZERO useful answer to this short question. Because "wait and You will see" is not really an answer.

[veganline]

Wait and see if...

• the sponsor will fund major bug fixes & adaptions to things like new PHP versions?
  I'm confident. He has said that he would have had to hire a developer anyway for his own shop. And that he is keen on stability, and interested in a better advanced stock system. You can subscribe if you want to encourage and help him break-even on things like paying for this forum on which we write. He's also said that he won't fund new themes, but you can, and someone on the forum was going to give it a go so you can find the link and offer to fund.
   
• Thirtybees is cheaper than Shopify?
  It simply is.  I use hosting.co.uk at some ridiculously low price with a one-click installer for Thirtybees.
  As a bonus, it can be tweaked and adapted and changed around like no subscription shopping cart. There are one or two other open source shopping carts but Magento is gross and PS is the reason most of us are here: this code does not have to pay for a big office or loads of staff or investors who paid for that and want a return. It's just code. Another one is called CubeCart. It has survived with one developer and owner for decades, probably working from home part time, but there might just be two involved now. I used to use Mals e-commerce, run by one person part-time.
   
• Thirtybees is a geeky project or "professional...powerful"?
  Not my business! I sell shoes. I just want something with low costs so I can look as though I am in business when there aren't many sales. If I had a physical shop, I would want a thrifty but stable landlord, and it's the same for ecommerce.

Edited July 2, 2021 by veganline

[wakabayashi]

5 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm not a coder. I have offered to help with key aspects of managing the process pathway and project, and datakick responded to that positively and further steps were taken and then abruptly everything stopped so I presume Smile stopped that.

Obviously I don't know what happened here. But what I know is, that merchants have to high expectations on DEVs. Devs don't understand the needs of merchants properly. 

Merchants think: oh lets improve "return handling" or "we need a modern theme". It's not enough to say that. You need exactly to draw, what of the current process is not working or is bad. How it should be designed in the future. Merchants don't even take the time to articulate this things. I have started many initiatives to make progress, but almost nobody joined. 

So dear merchants: stop crying and start to deliver. 

 

Quote

 Time is long overdue to get professional and build this platform into something powerful.

What does it mean in practice? Everyone can say it!? It's like a consulting says: oh just offer the best products with best service to the lowest price - then customers will love you...

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by wakabayashi

[Mark]

2 hours ago, wakabayashi said:

Obviously I don't know what happened here. But what I know is, that merchants have to high expectations on DEVs. Devs don't understand the needs of merchants properly. 

Merchants think: oh lets improve "return handling" or "we need a modern theme". It's not enough to say that. You need exactly to draw, what of the current process is not working or is bad. How it should be designed in the future. Merchants don't even take the time to articulate this things. I have started many initiatives to make progress, but almost nobody joined. 

So dear merchants: stop crying and start to deliver. 

 

What does it mean in practice? Everyone can say it!? It's like a consulting says: oh just offer the best products with best service to the lowest price - then customers will love you...

 

I agree with you @wakabayashi
that there's misunderstandings all round.

 

Devs will be definitely getting frustrated with merchants not paying and contributing to thirtybees, working and getting nowhere.

 

Merchants are frustrated that there's nothing much happening and yet plenty to do and bugs to fix.

There's not a proper mechanism by which merchants pay, it's still some half assed donation thing.

I suspect Smile is working on this but who would seriously know what's going on..

Merchants should certainly be paying in a tiered approach, starting at free.

Personally I think that the Devs who contribute in a meaningful way should also have a stake in this business and not be getting nothing but thanks for what they do.

 

The problem is management and ego. It's always been TB's weakness. And it could very easily kill TB. Which would be bloody sad because a lot of hard work and passion has gone into it, for it to only go backwards in the market.

 

[Traumflug]

19 hours ago, led24ee said:

There is one question and it's about future.

This certainly applies to Open Source projects more than elsewhere.

[Traumflug]

15 hours ago, Mark said:

There's not a proper mechanism by which merchants pay, it's still some half assed donation thing.

The mechanism goes like this:

1. Recognize a bug.
2. Approach a developer and say "There is this this bug, here are the steps to reproduce it (1. ..., 2. ..., 3. ..., 4. ..., ...). Please fix it, offer the result as a pull request on Github and send the invoice to me."
3. Pay the invoice and enjoy.

Pretty simple and effective.

[led24ee]

Thanks. Now You can also see why there isn't much users.

[veganline]

(1) Some carts have a big development budget; granted. Maybe even a free cart.

(2) Has anyone seen any good ideas for users to fund software ?

I don't know a good online negotiating and bidding system for anything that allows one person to say "I really want this and pledge €100: will anyone else help?" and another to say "I really want that and an overlapping idea but only pledge €50" and a third to add a goodwill €10, and a developer to reply "Would this simpler solution do? It costs more than €160 but if you bid a bit more I could do it" . I was interested in Ubercart a few years ago who tried a system of Bounties: "I offer X to do Y: please get in touch". I don't know how often it worked.

Then there's the problem of hiring developers: is it best to have an expensive developer manage a cheap one, or go with whoever bids on freelancer.co.uk once the spec. is known? Or go with an expensive one who is expensive because trusted as good at coding and problem-solving and original or critical ideas and dealing with people?

Kickstarter-style software is available free but it relies on one person having a project that other users will fund, so on a small scale you might get three related projects proposed by three different people who don't fund each others' ideas. I think that already exists on the Thirtybees site somewhere.

I have a list somewhere of which freelancer sites have the lowest commission; I think one called Guru in India is lowest and Fiverr the highest.

If anyone sees whar works I'd love to know. I think I saw some online negotiation tool years ago that I might rediscover, but it's probably disappointing when found.

Maybe there are colleges where students want exercises to practice-on. In the UK there is a system called Knowledge Transfer Partnerships but I guess partnership require grander projects as I have never had a reply from any.

Edited July 4, 2021 by veganline

[Briljander]

For me it's the lack of information, broken promises and all the waiting that makes me very uncertain on this project.

Really don't understand the logic of going undercover and not realize that it's important to communicate with your customer base and if there is progress communicate it as well. Without the communication the project seems dead and the believe is that there is no progress. And again, when "staff" do read about the dissatisfaction in the forums and still there is no news or progress shown the conclusion is that there is no progress.

[luksl]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:15 PM, Traumflug said:

The mechanism goes like this:

1. Recognize a bug.
2. Approach a developer and say "There is this this bug, here are the steps to reproduce it (1. ..., 2. ..., 3. ..., 4. ..., ...). Please fix it, offer the result as a pull request on Github and send the invoice to me."
3. Pay the invoice and enjoy.

Pretty simple and effective.

I'm sorry, I don't get your point of view. I think if a merchant finds a bug, according to you, then should do all work except the development and pay for it. In this case TB would lose what's important about it. I think you are actually speaking a about a private/commercial project.

I can imagine how hard and time consuming is the work on the project of such. Open source project probably ucually don't bring a lot of money. It's hard to find a way how to achieve it.

It is important to attract, retain and expand the community around the project. To appreciate it's (still suprisingly) alive. When mechants (TB possible customers) complains, talk about bugs that means the project is still alive.

Of course, it's important to find a way how to earn money of it, if you don't do it just as a hobby (which would not be too good).

I think the way could be to focus on the core so that it would be as good as possible, with some good free modules and, what's extremelly important, with superb paid modules that would really make the difference from PS and the others (the money could be here). I think it's also really the time to separate from PS 1.6 starting from TB 1.3 so that the development can go it's way and make even better piece of software / e-commerce solution. One very important thing, which can be TB diffent from the others is that it will NOT SPY on the mechants and don't make them do things they don't whant to do.

 

[Traumflug]

4 hours ago, luksl said:

I'm sorry, I don't get your point of view. I think if a merchant finds a bug, according to you, then should do all work except the development and pay for it. In this case TB would lose what's important about it.

Of course you get it. Just like you ship orders in your shop only after payment, developers ship code only after payment. If you want code for free, ship orders in your shop for free. That's about the equivalent.

- - - - -

Alright, I'll stop this discussion at this point. Trying to explain reality to a crowd of people which simply doesn't want to accept this reality just too disencouraging. Preparing the next Merchant's Edition release is much more fun, even with the certain knowledge that people in this discussion thread will yell at it again. Happy yelling, all of you 🙂

[led24ee]

3 hours ago, Traumflug said:

Alright, I'll stop this discussion at this point. Trying to explain reality to a crowd of people which simply doesn't want to accept this reality just too disencouraging. Preparing the next Merchant's Edition release is much more fun, even with the certain knowledge that people in this discussion thread will yell at it again. Happy yelling, all of you 🙂

That's the best answer for many question so far.

[undecided]

On 7/3/2021 at 11:15 PM, Traumflug said:

The mechanism goes like this:

1. Recognize a bug.
2. Approach a developer and say "There is this this bug, here are the steps to reproduce it (1. ..., 2. ..., 3. ..., 4. ..., ...). Please fix it, offer the result as a pull request on Github and send the invoice to me."
3. Pay the invoice and enjoy.

Pretty simple and effective.

In my opinion, the basic thinking is right, but maybe not great explained with talking about to fix a bug.

If there is a bug in the software, it should proper be explained so that it can be fixed by the "owner" oft the software or someone else. This should not be connected to the term of being paid by the one how discovered the bug. However, nobody can expect the bug to be fixed within a certain time and might life with the possibility of it being not fixed at all.

The overall problem is that for most people open source is equal to free of cost.

[Smile]

On 5/25/2021 at 6:32 PM, luksl said:

When the next (major) version (1.3) of TB will be released? Is there any road map?

What it will contain / change. For example, whether there will be a new theme? Will it use the newest Bootstrap 5 etc.?

I have noticed it will drop support of PHP 5.6, I think it could drop support of PHP 7.0 too. No one should use such an old version of PHP in production environments. Actually, it would make sense the v1.3 of TB would support PHP 7.3 and up in order to evolve faster. For those who need to use older versions of PHP there could be (just) security maintained v1.2.x.

We expect in 2-4 weeks from now. Sorry it sounds wired but I could not find the php issue for the 1.3 sprint in Jira 😉 But if I am correct 1.3.0 will support 7.4.... Don't nail me down if I am wrong 😉