Goodbye

[Chandra]

I wish we had an update from the leads so we find a direction. May be @Traumflug knows anymore? The leads started the initiative with all good intentions and if there are constraints right now, that is understandable.

I have no doubt tb is the best, truly open source, stable and feature rich ecommerce right now. It means a lot to keep it going.

If there is not much of an update coming, why not assess the lowest cost we can keep this running? An open source forum, simple hosting, github, and just enough development to keep it stable and secure shouldn't cost the earth?

I find this is a unique supportive spirited community, where a lot of us are merchants too. While some of us may be constrained to contribute $, I guess we can make it run?

[datakick]

Let make something clear - my decision to leave this project was never about money.

I was never an employee (or owner) of thirtybees. While my contribution was mainly for free, it was not selfless. It brought me a lot of recognition in the community, and subsequently a lot of job offers and modules sales (and I'm grateful for all of you for that). I was also occasionally hired and paid by @lesley for particular jobs (like stripe module overhaul), so I did earn some money out of this. 

My decision to leave was based on my longtime frustration with the current status. I know Lesley is/was seriously ill, and it's probably one of the reasons why this project is now drifting without any direction. What this project need most is an active leadership, and I'm afraid Lesley just can't provided that at the moment. 

I was trying to keep this project afloat for a long time now, maintaining good spirit, and faith in the project. But I just can't do that anymore, because I don't believe that the things will change anytime soon. 

 

[Acer]

40 minutes ago, datakick said:

Let make something clear - my decision to leave this project was never about money.

I was never an employee (or owner) of thirtybees. While my contribution was mainly for free, it was not selfless. It brought me a lot of recognition in the community, and subsequently a lot of job offers and modules sales (and I'm grateful for all of you for that). I was also occasionally hired and paid by @lesley for particular jobs (like stripe module overhaul), so I did earn some money out of this. 

My decision to leave was based on my longtime frustration with the current status. I know Lesley is/was seriously ill, and it's probably one of the reasons why this project is now drifting without any direction. What this project need most is an active leadership, and I'm afraid Lesley just can't provided that at the moment. 

I was trying to keep this project afloat for a long time now, maintaining good spirit, and faith in the project. But I just can't do that anymore, because I don't believe that the things will change anytime soon. 

 

Wow... So what does that mean for Thirtybees? And does this answer the question of leadership? That there is none? 

If you're so frustrated, and it's your right of course, why don't you ask to take leadership, run the project then? 

What will we do as the community and mercants? Our shops run on this thing, with countless time and money spent.

Not to mention that we believed in this thing... 

Anyone? We need leadership and feedback now more than ever... 

@Traumflug @lesley

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Theo

[toplakd]

I'm not that much concerned about my future and running my shop with thirty bees.

As long as you use mainly stock modules, and working templates you will be on safe side for long time.

Hell, I could work normal with my pre-migrated 1.6 shop without problems, never had any issues and started 10 years ago with 1.3.8 (or .9 don't remember exactly)

But as long as one starts using third party modules and themes (the ones which are not written well) and started using overrides which are not always compliant with core, then you will fast run into problems.

And than we also come to so called customers bugs, which are related to not knowing what they turned off/on, or made some own modifications/overrides not knowing how they affect the core.

Some of them yelling this is a bug, i didn't change anything, problem is in core, why should I allow anyone to access my shop, why should I pay you, everything should be free and so on....

Same with themes, TB has 2 own themes which are working good (for zero $$$/€€€) and well working Panda theme which is also very cheap.

The one who thinks 75$ for Panda theme is too much, should close the shop next minute.

But one can always migrate to latest Prestashop if one thinks there will be less problems and more speed 🤣🤣

Just my 385 cents, and again, i'm not concerned my shop will stop working.

 

[rubben1985]

@datakick I was going to write you in private but I think this community deserves to give their opinion but also to know what others think too.

I honestly think that you (and the rest of the actual actives contributors), should "take the the helm" and create the new staff.

Without all of you (and specially you in the last months) there is not TB  because community is great but we need someone more involved than standard merchants. Community growth around a solid core.

I can understand Lesley is ill and we hope he will recover soon, but it is also true that we are in a professional environment and any project needs a leader. Why not you? You have been the leader anyway this last period. It can be at TB or a TB fork if necessary.

I am not developer, but I am quite decent in management and marketing (that was always the biggest problem for TB growth). I would gladly give my inputs (there are so many easy things to fix in the communication and branding...), even collaborate with designers from my team for free. Not talking about intensive work, but more that testimonial, for sure. If you think about the possibility, I think could be an inflexion point in TB history

Edited April 14, 2020 by rubben1985

[Traumflug]

2 hours ago, zen said:

How TB works legaly

Looking at the bottom of thirtybees.com one can read this:

© thirty development llc

As in most countries, one can look up limited-type companies in public registers:

https://tnbear.tn.gov/Ecommerce/FilingDetail.aspx?CN=255033012188122038179169083159160212228131154070 (solve the captcha to see the entry)

One can see the number of company members going up and down over the years. Before you ask: I'm none of them.

[Acer]

11 minutes ago, Traumflug said:

How TB works legaly

Looking at the bottom of thirtybees.com one can read this:

© thirty development llc

As in most countries, one can look up limited-type companies in public registers:

https://tnbear.tn.gov/Ecommerce/FilingDetail.aspx?CN=255033012188122038179169083159160212228131154070 (solve the captcha to see the entry)

One can see the number of company members going up and down over the years. Before you ask: me is none of them.

@Traumflug? Really is this your feedback? Come on, I think we all deserve better and some sort of comment and reassurance? 

[Traumflug]

Which reassurance? I don't know anything about this company other than it's name and what's written in this registry entry.

[Briljander]

12 minutes ago, Traumflug said:

How TB works legaly

Looking at the bottom of thirtybees.com one can read this:

© thirty development llc

As in most countries, one can look up limited-type companies in public registers:

https://tnbear.tn.gov/Ecommerce/FilingDetail.aspx?CN=255033012188122038179169083159160212228131154070 (solve the captcha to see the entry)

One can see the number of company members going up and down over the years. Before you ask: I'm none of them.

So you have never been part of the company? I thought so. Is that why you are not contributing anymore either?

[movieseals]

So...

Where is the money paid by supporters going?  It did not serve to pay any of you guys contributing on github?

Why has anybody in charge said anything so far?

Is there no one in charge, except Lesley who is ill and has not given sign of life since January?

Where does that leave the project?  It seems like it is going to die on the vine unless somebody else takes over.  It would be a shame, really.

Edited April 14, 2020 by movieseals

[zen]

I Guess nowhere ... Sad but good Time for reacting and doing something even better on our own !

[Acer]

36 minutes ago, Traumflug said:

Which reassurance? I don't know anything about this company other than it's name and what's written in this registry entry.

Agh lol @Traumflug you're listed on the Staff page...

After everything, now you're giving nonchalant replies... 

[zen]

what happen @Traumflug  so that you do not participate anymore.. you used to work for TB, not anymore ?

[Traumflug]

1 minute ago, Theo said:

After everything, now you're giving nonchalant replies... 

See, this is why I outright fear to tell anything. As soon as I start to tell a few facts or answer a simple question, a rush of disappointed messages follows, sometimes not far from insulting. And this happens with thirty bees only, never seen a message questioning the PrestaShop or Magento or whatever company.

If you want reassurance, here it is: https://github.com/thirtybees/thirtybees Code is public, available for everybody. Even if somebody would pull this public repository, many of us have copies/clones on platter and every single shop has most of its files installed. And its license perfectly allows to use the code until the sun goes dark or the universe collapses. Unlike all the Microsoft/Apple/SAP/whatever stuff, nobody can take that away from you.

Another thing is, I promised years ago to not leave merchants in the dust. This continues to be true. Run your shop, and if something goes wrong, drop me a message. Or Datakick or another developer. Support is still there and pretty much unchanged, even Datakick said about the same earlier in this thread:

 

[toplakd]

Staff page on forum shows who are the administrators moderators and its not saying anything about who belongs to the company. Those are only most active code knowing, bug fixing contributors which also moderate the forum.

[Acer]

1 hour ago, Traumflug said:

See, this is why I outright fear to tell anything. As soon as I start to tell a few facts or answer a simple question, a rush of disappointed messages follows, sometimes not far from insulting. And this happens with thirty bees only, never seen a message questioning the PrestaShop or Magento or whatever company.

If you want reassurance, here it is: https://github.com/thirtybees/thirtybees Code is public, available for everybody. Even if somebody would pull this public repository, many of us have copies/clones on platter and every single shop has most of its files installed. And its license perfectly allows to use the code until the sun goes dark or the universe collapses. Unlike all the Microsoft/Apple/SAP/whatever stuff, nobody can take that away from you.

Another thing is, I promised years ago to not leave merchants in the dust. This continues to be true. Run your shop, and if something goes wrong, drop me a message. Or Datakick or another developer. Support is still there and pretty much unchanged, even Datakick said about the same earlier in this thread:

 

Hi, apologies if my post appeared offensive. It was not my intention.

Just you appeared part of the team. And I suppose with no leadership here, it's easy to assume that you played an active role. 

So the question is:

Who will be maintaining TB, fixing bugs, sorting out issues, take it up to PHP 7.4,7.5, 8++? Helping us like Datakick and yourself used to?  

And moving the project forward like @datakick said? 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Theo

[toplakd]

When choosing free open source software one also has to take into consideration that it's support might not be forever, or that it might not be updated as frequently as one would like.

It's not that hard to understand what free options bring.

Edited April 15, 2020 by toplakd

[Sigi]

1 hour ago, toplakd said:

When choosing free open source software one also has to take into consideration that it's support might not be forever, or that it might not be updated as frequently as one would like.

It's not that hard to understand what free options bring.

thats right. but when i read the posts here and understand them correctly, there are a lot poeple who would like to keep this project alive( like @rubben1985 @zen yourself @toplakd @Chandra even @datakick if there would be some more activness and all the others, just to name a few here...) There is just nobody since @lesley became ill, who organices "everything". 
Another thing is, that it would be great when the money supporters give, would achieve the poeple who spend their time into this project. EDIT: But as i found out here, there is nobody who knows where the supporters money goes. Even those administrators like traumflug or datakick don´t know this.  thanks for clarifying @datakick

Edited April 15, 2020 by Sigi

[datakick]

 

11 hours ago, rubben1985 said:

I honestly think that you (and the rest of the actual actives contributors), should "take the the helm" and create the new staff.

Without all of you (and specially you in the last months) there is not TB  because community is great but we need someone more involved than standard merchants. Community growth around a solid core.

I may be a good developer, and I could surely lead the technical side of the project. But I don't think I could do the business part -- and without it, we would end in the same mess we are now.  

4 minutes ago, Sigi said:

Another thing is, that it would be great when the money supporters give, would achieve the poeple who spend their time into this project. But as i found out here, there is nobody who knows where the supporters money goes. Even those administrators like traumflug or datakick don´t know this. 

Let's not jump to any conclusions, or spread unfounded rumors. The supporters money goes to tb company for sure. As far as I know, @lesley regularly sent them (and then some more) to @Traumflug while he was still working on code, as his monthly stipend. I truly believe there was no 'fund misappropriation' here.

[Acer]

Ok so how do we "fix" this then?

As there are many that want to keep this project alive and keep @datakick and others like him around.
I don't know the first thing about starting an Open Source fork, but I'd be willing to contribute where I can.
Both in skill as well as financially if possible. I can help with front-end coding, UI, design and some project management, ideas, coordination etc.

We (all of us) could even work together to finance @datakick and others and give guidance, tasks, projects, goals etc.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Theo

[Briljander]

I haven't seen the financials but I don't think there is enough money to give salary to a fulltime developer. We have been like ~25 patreons giving from $5 to $50 I think. I don't even think everyone in this forum thread are contributors.

And I also don't think it's enough with one, it must be devoted team to make this work. 

[wakabayashi]

@Briljander The cash is mainly coming in trough ads revenue, as far as I know. 

[Naldinho]

4 hours ago, Theo said:

Ok so how do we "fix" this then?

As there are many that want to keep this project alive and keep @datakick and others like him around.

I just migrated a day ago so I'm new here and don't know much about the dynamics of either the company or the community but I do recognize the sentiment expressed by datakick. When working on a project-- even if it is something you enjoy and something you believe in-- if there are benefits and they are not being distributed commensurate to the value each person brings to the project then the people who are doing the most are going to start to feel resentment. It is perfectly normal. The only way I'd expect for this to be fixable-- in a form that would be stable going forward-- is to offer equity in the company to the people who contribute value. People need to have skin in the game to feel like everyone is rowing as a team.

This particular situation is complicated by the fact that the lead organizer has been MIA since announcing what sounded like a very serious medical issue. That is a very sensitive issue and it brings to the surface what I see as the original problem in that there really is no governance structure -- there are two members of the llc and from reading this thread I don't think anyone can name who the second person is. My guess is that when this fork happened the people who broke away from PS were online friends/acquaintances so the focus was on getting the project going rather than the boring legal stuff. In my experience that always ends badly.    

As a final comment as someone who just migrated I have no regrets -- TB works and it will continue to work for much longer than it is reasonable to not expect to have to redo an e-commerce site. As a product I have no issue both using and recommending TB. As a project though having it out there that the ship is stalled and adrift is something that is time sensitive so if it is going to be resolved then should be resolved quickly.  

[Briljander]

3 minutes ago, wakabayashi said:

@Briljander The cash is mainly coming in trough ads revenue, as far as I know. 

Might be true, I know there are partnerships but there is also a lot more costs than salary. I have no clue if Thirtybees is making profit or not but if it is I don't understand why a developer isn't hired.

Both @datakick and @Traumflug have put a lot of effort and time into this and have been devoted to the project so no doubt about their feelings about open source.

If TB was making profit I guess it would have been hard to get them to stay and put some more time into the project if they would get something in return and if there was someone that also was steering the boat.

[rubben1985]

7 minutes ago, Briljander said:

I haven't seen the financials but I don't think there is enough money to give salary to a fulltime developer. We have been like ~25 patreons giving from $5 to $50 I think. I don't even think everyone in this forum thread are contributors.

And I also don't think it's enough with one, it must be devoted team to make this work. 

I will answer for myself. For example I was backer in Patreon for about 2 years (maybe less, not sure) but looking at the path that took the direction with no direction at all (not talking about coding) I did not activated my contributions in the new system.

Yet, I think Patreon is not the solution from my perspective and I already expressed that in private to a few people. Coding is great here. The most basic Management and marketing is the pending thing since always.