Goodbye

[vincentdenkspel]

On 4/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, wakabayashi said:

Right. It's why I have thrown in the 50$/month Freemium model. In my post, I list everyone, who is ready to commit such an amount. Right now we are only 2 persons. Ofc the concept needs to be done much clearer, but if we can not even reach 10 people who say: "oh yeah thats in my budget". Then I don't even beginn to think deeper about it.

You can add me too

[veganline]

On 4/16/2020 at 7:19 AM, toplakd said:

when bug reports are opened/reported on forums, most of them do not show up if only native modules and themes are installed.

This is the first open source shopping cart I discovered that works for me with only native modules and themes installed. Others on Wordpress plugins lacked vital payment or postage by default; some with equity finance investors like Drupal Commerce were great until the day that money ran-out and hard-sell continued. Some like Magento only ran on expensive servers. Most were not able to fix weak points as Thirtybees has done. So I don't offer money but hope not to "bring down the mood" as mentioned further up the thread.

Talking of money, an investment platform called unbolted pays 8% secured against gold, if the platform owners do not run-off. Investors earn £50 from anyone who invests £1000 via their affiliate link within 6 months and the investor gets £50 from unbolted too. If Thirtybees had an account like that for £1,000 of petty cash, they could earn £50 now-and-then from referrals and earn 8% on it, plus their £50 sweetener from unbolted and the £50 I would donate.

It's hard to recommend investments because they go bust and it's embarrassing, but the option is there.

Another idea. Opting-in to data sale. Lesley promised that he would not sell data, but if individual users could allow it if they wanted to help the project....?

Edited April 18, 2020 by veganline
money

[Briljander]

2 hours ago, Traumflug said:

Sounds like a reasonable base to work with.

Except for one thing missing: making a feature request needs a price tag. Else the list of feature requests ends up where it was before: hundreds of requests with one supporter each and many being almost, but not entirely the same. Hardest part of a user driven feature request list is probably to aggregate requests somehow, to agree among all/most users on what to work, and on what to work next.

There is no shortage of ideas for features. I have a TODO list with like 100 bullet points myself, requests on Github not even included 🙂

I guess there need to be both a roadmap which is setup by "the team" about new important features for compatibility, bug fixing and upgrade of versions but also a parallel roadmap which are influenced by the forum and people contributing with money.

The votings could be done quarterly and for example $50 gives 1 vote, $100 gives 2 votes, $150 gives 3 votes and so on. Then the money put into the project will also give more influence.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Briljander

[Smile]

14 hours ago, Briljander said:

The votings could be done quarterly and for example $50 gives 1 vote, $100 gives 2 votes, $150 gives 3 votes and so on. Then the money put into the project will also give more influence.

I love that idea!

[Sigi]

On 4/18/2020 at 12:52 PM, toplakd said:

I would qualify myself as Normal Supporter 5-10$ monthly (60-120 on yearly basis)

same here

[DRMasterChief]

My idea / previous post was to spread tb wide in the online commerce, this is only possible with a subscription model and reasonable fee per month,  i am wrong ? 

Do you really think a merchant which is new to tb  will give 50 USD a month when he can have well-known system for the half ?   It's just my serious question, i dont want to upset anyone.

[Briljander]

17 minutes ago, DRMasterChief said:

My idea / previous post was to spread tb wide in the online commerce, this is only possible with a subscription model and reasonable fee per month,  i am wrong ? 

Do you really think a merchant which is new to tb  will give 50 USD a month when he can have well-known system for the half ?   It's just my serious question, i dont want to upset anyone.

My vision was that it would still be possible to use TB but you won't get any support (hopefully we will still have friendly forum members) and you will not have any influence of the projects roadmap. Maybe also freemium is basic use and not all new features will be available. As long as the platform is competitive against other platform in the market the shouldn't be a problem.

And no, I don't think everyone is willing to pay $50 and certainly not $250 a month cause then there are many other good paid options but I do think there must me a distinction between paid and free. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Briljander

[dynambee]

So to be clear the $50/month isn't specifically a license but more like a membership that lets you have some input into the direction the project takes, correct? I assume the money would be used to pay for development? Who would manage the money?

Assuming things are set up well I'd be willing to contribute $50 a month.

[Briljander]

This was only my personal thoughts. 

But I don't think we will be enough that do pay $50 a month. The most crucial part is as it has always been, we need to be more people here contributing and we need to attract morr people to join. This was a way of trying to collect more money from us who really can and want to. 

In the end I am not the owner of TB and have no intention to be either, I don't have that time. But I am willing to pay for a good e-commerce platform which is actively developed and maintained.

[Acer]

The thing you guys don't seem to realise is this:

• There's already money coming in from the Supporters (including from many of you).
• So the points about different subscription models may be valid - but misses the point that money is already coming in. 
• What is happening with this cash?
• Also, there is a big question about Partners? Do they contribute and what is the deal with them? What is their interest and how is that being looked after?
• There's already a Thirybees company that handles all of this (supposed to)
• While I agree with the idea that a larger subscription qualifies you to have a say in the direction of the platform, it should not be a 'pay gate' policy where it locks out normal users from being able to use the 'full TB' and ask questions and get support in the Forums.
• Having a 'paid platform' will be to the detriment of the growth of TB and against the original 'open / everybody welcome' ethos - imo
• Being FREE (the full package) is one of TB's strongest points - and is inline with many other main eCommerce platforms (OpenCart, Magento etc., even Oxid CE)
• Yes, TB needs more users, and that's why many of us have mentioned a strong marketing drive to attract more
• @lesley needs to come to the party please -  and maybe all of us that are interested in the future of TB can have a call with him to discuss? (Skype, Zoom, Slack or whatever) 

Also, I feel that my previous points are worth mentioning here again. Imo, we need some sort of New Running Committee, Leader, Budget, Marketing and Plan to fix things going forward

On 4/18/2020 at 1:13 PM, Theo said:

Point is we need some sort of new 'Running Committee' or 'TB Community Committee' , imo. 

Right now there are supporters, and Partner Agencies already. Where is the money going? And how does it work? Why is this not going to devs? 

The problem is that the project doesn't just comprise of the development aspect (and subscription issues). In my mind we would need to take care of the following:

1. Development: new features, bug fixes
2. Marketing: Active and aggressive marketing campaigns to bring in more and new users, especially from PS
3. Coordination: Organise developers and tasks etc in line with Features and overall goal
4. Money and Admin: What is says on the box. Budget, Plus subscriptions, Partners etc
5. Leader: pulls all of this together. The Master Mind. With vision of future TB and with the motivation and momentum and purpose driving the project forward. With a blood lust to succeed and take on PS head on. This individual will need to be a full time, paid and paid well employee of TB
6. Community Committee: like a board, votes on issues and tasks and advises and guides the Leader 

Maybe we can have a meeting with @lesley and all concerned to discuss? 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Theo

[Briljander]

55 minutes ago, Theo said:

The thing you guys don't seem to realise is this:

• There's already money coming in from the Supporters (including from many of you).
• So the points about different subscription models may be valid - but misses the point that money is already coming in. 
• What is happening with this cash?
• Also, there is a big question about Partners? Do they contribute and what is the deal with them? What is their interest and how is that being looked after?
• There's already a Thirybees company that handles all of this (supposed to)
• While I agree with the idea that a larger subscription qualifies you to have a say in the direction of the platform, it should not be a 'pay gate' policy where it locks out normal users from being able to use the 'full TB' and ask questions and get support in the Forums.
• Having a 'paid platform' will be to the detriment of the growth of TB and against the original 'open / everybody welcome' ethos - imo
• Being FREE (the full package) is one of TB's strongest points - and is inline with many other main eCommerce platforms (OpenCart, Magento etc., even Oxid CE)
• Yes, TB needs more users, and that's why many of us have mentioned a strong marketing drive to attract more
• @lesley needs to come to the party please -  and maybe all of us that are interested in the future of TB can have a call with him to discuss? (Skype, Zoom, Slack or whatever) 

Also, I feel that my previous points are worth mentioning here again. Imo, we need some sort of New Running Committee, Leader, Budget, Marketing and Plan to fix things going forward

 

Sure, there is money coming in but I don't think it's enough to give salary to a team of 3-5 persons. 

If everything is free there is not enough incentives to be become a payer. I agree that it should be open and free but not everything. This has already been tried with this platform and also on Internet since many years. 10 years ago everything was free on the Internet, nowadays you get a free version to get people interested and try to get them to buy the paid version.

The only companies I know that have a business model that do work with "everything is free" is companies that sell or use the userdata (Google?).

[Acer]

29 minutes ago, Briljander said:

Sure, there is money coming in but I don't think it's enough to give salary to a team of 3-5 persons. 

If everything is free there is not enough incentives to be become a payer. I agree that it should be open and free but not everything. This has already been tried with this platform and also on Internet since many years. 10 years ago everything was free on the Internet, nowadays you get a free version to get people interested and try to get them to buy the paid version.

The only companies I know that have a business model that do work with "everything is free" is companies that sell or use the userdata (Google?).

Magento, OpenCart, PS and many others all have a free version so this model can work. The ideas here about subscriptions can be a solution, but TB should remain free (as it is now), imo.
Once again, money is coming in and until we have a proper meeting with @lesley and know the facts, all we're doing is speculation.
We need facts so we can actually come up with ideas that will work in relation to these facts. And bytw, there are many ways to "skin this particular cat". Ideas that can be discussed in a meeting.
Some quick ideas that come to mind: Ubuntu / Canonical (full free system + paid support). Another idea is perhaps a really great paid theme with awesome modules, responsive - like Panda, just built by TB.
Everyone can come up with some ideas in the meeting and we can discuss and pick the ideas that we believe will work.
Once again, after we know the facts.

And yes, @lesley I'm sure all of us that are interested in finding a solution will be willing to sign a NDA - so you may as well draft the mail so long.
 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Theo

[datakick]

Most of the ideas you guys posted in this thread are good, and could be implemented. But again, it boils down to the leadership issue.

There must be somebody who is actively in charge of the project, and who sets up goals and general direction. Somebody that decides on monetization strategy, and on development directions. You know, The Plan. 

The reason why I started this thread is that there is nobody doing this job at the moment. It's probably mixture of burnt out / illness that @lesley is going through. But whatever it is, it's not good for the project. And until this is fixed, I don't see any way forward.

As @wakabayashi already analyzed in his post, there's only a handful of things that could happen

1. Lesley will once again start doing what he was doing at the beginning of this project. Be once again a leader
2. Somebody buy the thirtybees company, and becomes a new leader
3. somebody forks the code, creates a new company, and starts from the scratch
4. nothing will change, and this project will be frozen in time. It will work for another two to three years, and you should all use this time to figure out what to do next   

 

[AndyC]

Well can we not find a temporary person to take over TB until Lesley can take over again. Every company does this

[Acer]

4 minutes ago, AndyC said:

Well can we not find a temporary person to take over TB until Lesley can take over again. Every company does this

@datakick @lesley @everybody concerned. Is it not time that we have meeting to discuss this??
Can the community not create some sort of "TB Foundation" / Committee and nominate a leader + we all figure out the rest together?

[Traumflug]

5 hours ago, Theo said:

We need facts so we can actually come up with ideas that will work in relation to these facts.

Here are two such facts:

1. It's hard to find developers working on a free community version. Everybody tries to get the best advantage out of his/her work. This isn't surprising, but is also of limited advantage for the community as a whole. Result: lots of agencies at work, lots of "somebody should" texts when it comes to community work.

2. It's even harder to get people into agreeing on something. Everyone has own ideas and wants these to be implemented, nothing else. Which means, even with sufficient money things don't fall into place naturally and any "leader" has constantly to deal with disappointed stakeholders.

[AnnaLisik]

4 hours ago, Theo said:

@datakick @lesley @everybody concerned. Is it not time that we have meeting to discuss this??
Can the community not create some sort of "TB Foundation" / Committee and nominate a leader + we all figure out the rest together?

Hey everyone, I can create fork of TB as Im heavy-user as well as customizer (my customization are internal only) so I know codebase quite-well and thus I can lead a fork. But Im not going to take-over company.

[Acer]

12 minutes ago, Traumflug said:

Here are two such facts:

1. It's hard to find developers working on a free community version. Everybody tries to get the best advantage out of his/her work. This isn't surprising, but is also of limited advantage for the community as a whole. Result: lots of agencies at work, lots of "somebody should" texts when it comes to community work.

2. It's even harder to get people into agreeing on something. Everyone has own ideas and wants these to be implemented, nothing else. Which means, even with sufficient money things don't fall into place naturally and any "leader" has constantly to deal with disappointed stakeholders.

Interesting, thank you. The facts I was referring to was money related and how the TB company actually works, especially in terms of cash from Supporters and Partnerships / how that works etc.
I think TB can be driven forward by a "professional company" that is funded by the Supporters etc, that drives the Project forward according to the "Vision" decided by the "TB Company / Leader" and decides on and implements features towards this Goal.
However, I think that the Community can also help and contribute towards the code base and fixes and should also be able to vote on a "Select amount of new features" per term, over-and-above the Features determined by the "Leader" and "TB Company". 
Thereby utilising the "best of both" - Company + Community.

11 minutes ago, AnnaLisik said:

Hey everyone, I can create fork of TB as Im heavy-user as well as customizer (my customization are internal only) so I know codebase quite-well and thus I can lead a fork. But Im not going to take-over company.

That's pretty cool, thank you. Hopefully it doesn't come to that - would be nice to take TB forward. But good to know nonetheless...

Edited April 20, 2020 by Theo

[AnnaLisik]

@Theo if Im needed, just PM me :) will have notification on the email so I can react as needed :) Thanks.

[toplakd]

I was wondering how come you have not registered before, as being heavy user you've most likely have had some issues or suggestions regarding the modification.

As now it seems that account was created just to post reply in this thread without any preexisting presence in forum.

Regarding taking over TB. For qualify for that option, user needs to have at least 650 posts on forum

Edited April 20, 2020 by toplakd

[Acer]

4 minutes ago, toplakd said:

I was wondering how come you have not registered before, as being heavy user you've most likely have had some issues or suggestions regarding the modification.

Regarding taking over TB. For qualify for that option, user needs to have at least 650 posts on forum

Hehehe - in your opinion. I suggest we have a meeting with @lesley and take it over as a Community - together we should have way more than 650 posts 😉

Edited April 20, 2020 by Theo

[toplakd]

Sorry, you are still 401 posts short to qualify 😂 but getting closer everyday. 💪

Edited April 20, 2020 by toplakd

[Acer]

7 minutes ago, toplakd said:

Sorry, you are still 401 posts short to qualify 😂 but getting closer everyday. 💪

Lesley mentioned that we can do with TB what we like - so if we want to fork it - it's no problem. Nowhere has he mentioned a "certain amount of posts make you qualify" - lol 😁
Besides, Anna wasn't saying that she wants to take over, merely that she'd be willing to fork TB if we wished.
And imo, forking it is not the ideal solution here.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Theo

[zen]

Well Well  Well.. I find it encouraging to see so many people trying to find a way into this mess !!

I will tell you that I am still deeply involved in TB and will keep on doing my best to improve it like fixing bugs founded in core, I want to keep on doing it for free.

Working for free for TB is good, I like it and it's not for free at all in fact, as I use it on many projects for my customers and this is not for free.

Using TB instead of Presta 1.7 or OpenCart or WooCommerce or Magento is just the best option available for me specially for one point : All of the modifications I needed to do in CORE will be included in next version after adding a new pull request, but we need people taking car of that like trumbflug use to do and Datakick is still doing now.

Just to resume : I'll be on the boat when TB sinks or not, hoping to keep it moving into the ocean of ecommerce CMS.

Edited October 12, 2020 by zen

[Acer]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

Well Well  Well.. I find it encouraging to see so many people trying to find a way into this mess !!

I will tell you that I am still deeply involved in TB and will keep on doing my best to improve it like fixing bugs founded in core, I want to keep on doing it for free.

Working for free for TB is good, I like it and it's not for free at all in fact, as I use it on many projects for my customers and this is not for free.

Using TB instead of Presta 1.7 or OpenCart or WooCommerce or Magento is just the best option available for me specially for one point : All of the modifications I needed to do in CORE will be included in next version after adding a new pull request, but we need people taking car of that like trumbflug use to do and Datakick is still doing now.

Just to resume : I'll be on the boat when TB sinks or not, hoping to keep it moving into the ocean of ecommerce CMS.

Here is my last TB conversion website, from Presta 1.5 to TB 1.1 => https://www.jacquessoloviere.com I hope you like it 🙂

Nice to know 😀 

Very Nice Site & Compliments, well done! 😃